Vegas, Nicklaus and Public Golf in FL

[Alex_Wyatt]

Wandering around the country for the past week, happened upon a few public courses and had a few thoughts. Let's start in Vegas at Reflection Bay, the more highly regarded of the courses at Lake Las Vegas by the magazines...

I HATED IT.  There wasn't a green complex on the course that made any sense. These Nicklaus guys just don't know how to build greens.  They were all "potato chip" shaped and not only routinely required a very high approach in the "old JACK" style, but they were almost impossible to hold from deep greenside bunkers.  Honestly, I have absolutely no idea what these guys were thinking when they built this course.

The Weiskopf course is just infinitely better.

Now I know this is Jack before his evolution of late, so I went with much anticipation to see Jack's gift to his community at North Palm Beach CC. I was amazed to see how well they had created interesting landforms and a lot of good stuff from tee to green. Their bunker look was better than the cookie cutter style they used to use, and there were even some interesting central hazards.  If there was evidence of evolution, it was in the lower profile, closer to the ground, style of the greens. But with only one or two exceptions they were essentially unputtable. I played with three locals who told me that almost none of the community likes the course better than the 1/2 raynor that formerly occupied the property. Apparently, it looks very likely that they will tear up the greens and redo all of them, rendering any savings they garnered from Jack's gesture pretty much moot.

Now, there was some good news.  I forget who mentioned it, but somebody here was talking about Roy Case's effort at Park Ridge, so I went and checked it out.  The architecture is absolutely wonderful.  The condition will probably never be at 40 bucks a pop, but I couldn't have been more pleasantly surprised. Never heard of Roy before but would certainly like to see something else.Great building of low profile greens here in a semi-links style artificial environment.

[redanman]

Reflection Bay as an entire course beats the donkey P out of the Falls.  If the entire course were as fun and interesting as the second nine, it would be much closer.  The first nine at the Falls is a very remarkable snooze. I'd like to be more complimentary, but I can't.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Alex

I'm glad you enjoyed Park Ridge.I did.This course should be up there in GD's Best New Affordable if enough raters get there. We're waiting for Pete Stankevich to post his pictures. Here's the prior thread:

www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=28386

Here's the website for Roy Case:

www.casegolf.com

 

[cary lichtenstein]

Wandering around the country for the past week, happened upon a few public courses

Now I know this is Jack before his evolution of late, so I went with much anticipation to see Jack's gift to his community at North Palm Beach CC. I was amazed to see how well they had created interesting landforms and a lot of good stuff from tee to green. Their bunker look was better than the cookie cutter style they used to use, and there were even some interesting central hazards.  If there was evidence of evolution, it was in the lower profile, closer to the ground, style of the greens. But with only one or two exceptions they were essentially unputtable. I played with three locals who told me that almost none of the community likes the course better than the 1/2 raynor that formerly occupied the property. Apparently, it looks very likely that they will tear up the greens and redo all of them, rendering any savings they garnered from Jack's gesture pretty much moot.

This is a very astute post, which I agree 100% with regarding reflection bay and the North Palm Beach Course by JN. I have played it twice, why I played it the 2nd time, I have no idea.

But, tee to green, I like it. Bunker shaping is excellent.


But...probably the worst set of greens maybe I have ever seen. On a 15 foot putt, maybe 4 breaks, most 6 footers I was mostly guessing and mostly lagging.

I think JN has given his guys their heads and the cream is rising to the top with JWL and visa versa.

[kurt bowman]

Cary,

Can you please explain your comments below for the benefit of JWL, and myself.

Thanks,

Kurt



I think JN has given his guys their heads and the cream is rising to the top with JWL and visa versa.

[mike_beene]

Reflection Bay is one of my favorite courses.I really like the tee shots,and it seems to give a variety of short game shots.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Cary,

I always look forward to your unvarnished views, but I don't agree re the greens at NPB. I thought they were fun. It is a big world, I guess.

How would you compare NPB greens to Yale?

And I can't wait for your impressions of greens at Barnbougle Dunes, particularly the 13th - that could be your "walk off" moment of the trip!

Safe travels,
Mark

PS if the town really does blow up the greens it will prove the old adage of a prophet everywhere but his own country.

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary,

Can you please explain your comments below for the benefit of JWL, and myself.

Thanks,

Kurt



I think JN has given his guys their heads and the cream is rising to the top with JWL and visa versa.

Kurt:

I do not know your involvement nor direction at North Palm Beach Golf, so here goes...

I thought the best features of the course in general were the sand traps, whoever did the shaping was outstanding. I also loved the color of the sand, more of an orange cast than the pure white which hurts my eyes.

On the flip side, I thought the worst features were the greens which were just too crinkled, like a piece of paper that is crunched and then throw into the waste basket,  too many breaks and unreadible.

The strength of my game has always been chipping and putting, and I just gave up towards the end with the putting.

Now to be 100% fair, both times I played the greens had been top dressed with sand, were not smooth and impossible to get a good roll.

But even so, everyone I know that has played the course has made the same comments about the greens. I went so far as to say that if we hired Nicklaus and he did that to our greens, our membership would be up in arms.

Another comment I would like to make is parts of the course felt unfinished to me. I don't remember exactly the hole #'s, but I think about 10 or 12 holes looked really finished, and the others look like they ran out of money and look kind of inconsistent with the others.

I thought the severe dogleg par 4 is way too cramped, as both times I hit excellent drives, and 1st I had to punch under the tree limbs and the 2nd time I had to hit over the trees.

Regarding JWL, I like his work alot and think it is consistently 1st class.

I don't know the other architects by name, but everytime I find a JN course that I really like, it seems that JWL is the architect.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Cary

Kurt Bowman works for Nicklaus.

When we played NPB, you mentioned the severe greens and the "unfinished look" of many holes. Upon reflection, I agree. A friend recently played NPB at my suggestion. He mentioned the severe greens and said he would never return. He preferred Abacoa. Maybe those greens would work at a private club where frequent play would give the golfer a chance to learn how to read and play them. Nicklaus Design did a good job in producing a new course on the site except for the greens. What is the reaction of the locals who have annual memberships there?

I found Park Ridge in Lake Worth a much more enjoyable experience...and the cost for touristas is much less. Try it, you'll like it.

Steve