[Sean_A]

The debate about what length is driveable on the driveable par 4s thread got me to thinking got me to thinking about cards.  It is my understanding that Barndougle hands out cards for specific tees based on handicap.  Does each card have a different par for the course?  For example, are there some holes which may be a par 4 on the card from the forward tees and a par 3 from the next back?  To use Brent as an example, he may tee off from a 230 yard tee as a par 4, but the next set back may be a 240 yard par 3 or even a 200 yard par 3.  I have only seen this done on the rare hole and I think they were par 4 medal tee deals compared to par 5 daily play.

Has anybody come across a course which does adjust par for the tees much like it is done for ladies?  This effectively stretches par depending on the set of tees from 70ish to 78ish and would effectively change the hole indexes for those of us who play handicap golf.  I know I often talk about reachable par 4s/5s in the 300/500 yard range that a good many people can't reach so the hole loses some of its lustre for the these shorter hitters.  Tobacco Road strikes me as a perfect example of this.  

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

At North Berwick, two of the longer par 4s from the yellow tees (which the regular visitor plays) become short par 5s from the white (medal) tees when lengthened to around 480 yards.

That hardly seems fair!  The yellow course as a result is, for me, a couple of shots harder versus par.

[Jon Earl]

Tandridge has 2 holes (the 9th and the 12th) which play as par 5s off the whites and par 4s off the dailies. The respective yardages off the different tees are 476/406 and 444/397. IMHO, for a player of my ability, these play tougher off the yellows.

[Shane Sullivan]

Sean,

I might be missing a couple of cards, but for Barnbougle:

0-4 handicap : Forrester: par 71 ; 6,148 metres  ACR 73
5-17 handicap: Boobyalla: par 71 ; 5,642 metres  ACR 70

18-27 handicap: Melaleca; par 72; 4,995 metres  AWCR 70
28 and above; Marram; par 72; 4,584 metres  AWCR 68

Hole that is different:  8th hole is a 446 metre par four from the back tees for the men and is a 410 metre par five from the Melaluca tees.  The approach to the green is a shot uphill which you need to carry.

Cheers
Shane

[Tom Roewer]

There's a course just up the road from me that has a hole , #5 which is a par 5 from the men's tee which is forward of the championship tee and the par from the championship tee is 4.  

[Ally Mcintosh]

i may be picking this up wrong sean but you are also looking for the further back tees to be a lesser par, aren't you?... the guys above have indicated holes where the medal tee is a par 5 compared to a forward tee par 4... this is a regular occurance id've thought...

i only can think of one example of the top of my head where the medal is a par 4 and the forward tee a par 5 (at hazlehead)... i'm sure there are plenty of others though (not to mention the change if you are including the ladies tees)

[Ken Moum]

would effectively change the hole indexes for those of us who play handicap golf.

Unless you're playing different tees than your opponent, it shouldn't affect the stroke holes in match play.

They should be based on the difference in average scores between low and high handicappers. Unfortunately, a lot of clubs do like the pro at mine... they base the stroke holes on scoring relative to par. Which makes our #1 handicap hole a 210-yard par three.

K

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ganton 6th is played as a 440-ish par 5 by the members (including medal rounds) and the 17th as a 240-ish par 4.  For serious competitons (such as Walker Cup) the 6th is a 460-ish par 4 and the 17th a 240-ish par 3.  But par is irrelevant to qualifying scores, which are, of course, relevant to the SSS of the day.

[Jason McNamara]

I guess I didn't make myself clear.  Are there courses where the par changes dramatically, say five shots depending on the tees like the ladies tees?  I spose this is essentially a bogey score.  Any courses out there still doing this?  

The biggest difference I can come up with is Addington.  I don't think they list par, but it is generally accepted that par is 68 and bogey is 71 (which is listed on the card) - thats a 3 shot swing.  

Sean -

Downfield is also a 3-shot swing:  par 73 at 6800 yds, par 70 at 6200 yds (and 72 in between at 6500!).

see http://www.downfieldgolf.co.uk/Course.htm

I wonder if we'll ever see clubs change things around, i.e. that 490-yd par 5 gets switched to the (generally) shorter tees, while playing from the "tips" actually means a shorter (say, 440-yd) hole but one less stroke.

Wouldn't affect match play of course, but might affect Stablefords a bit if seniors get to play different tees.

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