[Mark_Rowlinson]

I've seen it in print that Swinley Forest is Colt's finest course and I've seen it in print, also, that St George's Hill is.  Simply because the site is even more interesting I think my preference is for St George's Hill, particularly the back 9.  But are Swinley's par 3s so much superior that there is no contest?  And for my money the 12th at Swinley is the greatest hole on either course.  Whither of the twain should I put in my time capsule to represent Colt's finest work?

By the way, and nothing to do with this thread, I drove past The Berkshire last week on the road from Reading to Bracknell and I noticed that they had thinned out a lot of the trees which had previously screened the Blue Course from this very busy road.  I hope it will not become too noisy for pleasure.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

Colt himself gave the nod to Swinley Forest so I would use that as the tiebreaker ... but both of them are outstanding and I wouldn't mind getting back to either one.

The old secretary at Swinley, Mr. Ingham, used to say his course was good but that Colt's finest was clearly Royal Portrush.

[Andrew Summerell]

Mark,

I have a friend who is a member at St George's Hill, and as much as he loves his home course, the times we have played Swinley Forest together (which is only 3 times) he raves about the place.

For mine, I prefer Swinley, but I am a big Colt fan & love both places.

Unfortunately, I have not play Royal Portrush.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Both are fresh in my memory since I played them last spring.  I like SGH a little better.  I thought the par fours were absolutely brilliant.  The greens complexes wee wondeful at both courses as are the routings.  I thought that SGH was the stonger of the two.  If I had to choose one to play it would be SGH.  I love Royal Portrush, but I think it may take a back seat to SGH. However, there is only a whiskers difference between the three.  Colt did some amazing stuff.
Too bad he had to die.  There are some folks you'd like to give a ticket on the train to great longevity.
We played a couple of his unsung courses last spring.

Oh, I did not think either course at the Berkshire needed too much tree work when I played there in 2004.  I loved the place.  Except for the last hole I especially enjoyed the Red.
The tough par three first on the Blue is not my ideal starting hole.  The nice par five first on the Red got me off to a nice start with a two putt birdie.

[Andy Levett]

Mark:

Colt himself gave the nod to Swinley Forest so I would use that as the tiebreaker ... but both of them are outstanding and I wouldn't mind getting back to either one.

The old secretary at Swinley, Mr. Ingham, used to say his course was good but that Colt's finest was clearly Royal Portrush.

Tom (or anyone) you're presumably referring to the quote that Swinley was his 'least bad' course? Do you know when he said that? (ie opening day at Swinley, on his death bed, or somewhere in between)

[Tom_Doak]

Andy:

I do not know the timing or source of the quote.  I doubt it was opening day at Swinley, they didn't do that sort of p.r. crap back then.

[Andy Levett]

I doubt it was opening day at Swinley, they didn't do that sort of p.r. crap back then.

Tom,
I sort of know what you mean but I've always wondered if that quote was the 'pr crap' of the day, attuned to the audience of the time - an understated and justified boast but a boast nonetheless.
You can just imagine Bernardo writing: "I had the great good fortune to visit Mr Colt's new course near Ascot, called Swinley Forest, in the company of its creator. I ventured to ask him if it was his best course but he demurred, only granting that it was his 'least bad'."

[Rich Goodale]

Yes, Andy, and I think that Tom needs to re-read "Scotland's Gift" and "Spirit of St. Andrews"--not to mention the press releases of DJR ("Finest piece of land for golf I have ever seen....")--if he wants to see some really gormless "p.r. crap."  The Oldies but Goldies showed the way in PR for the current crop of archies, just as they did in "templates" and the Victoria's Secret style of bunkering....

[Tony_Muldoon]

Andy you need to check the Hawtree biography.  I’m pretty sure it’s referenced there as a comment he made about missing his regular game at Swinley after he moved to East Hendred in 1915?

Only played the courses once each, but my impression is the land they sit on is not that similar for the generic term Heathland.   Just glad there’s both of them really.

Rich I look forward to you expounding on your Victoria Secret theory at Dinner on Monday night.  I’m sure there’s a lot more substance to it than just “Lacy Edges”. I’m curious as to you thoughts on, shape, depth, firm vs. soft etc but perhaps I’m most interested in reflecting on whether a bunker is at its most alluring and dangerous if only part of it is revealed from afar.

[James Bennett]

Tony

there are 'a-cup' bunkers through 'd-cup' in the Victorias Secret line of architecture.  And some can be a double D!

Tommy Nacarratto and Ed Getka now understand the term 'tits and bums' having seen Lost Canyons with me the other day.  Not quite Victoria's Secret, more Nicole Smith (RIP).

James B

[Mark_Rowlinson]

You're all too young to remember, but when I was a young lad middle-aged women wore 'roll-ons' to keep their figures in check.  Was this the origin of 'firm and fast'?

[Richard Pennell]

Colt did some amazing stuff.
Too bad he had to die.  There are some folks you'd like to give a ticket on the train to great longevity.
We played a couple of his unsung courses last spring.

Tommy - I'd be interested to know which unsung courses you played and what you thought of them. I very much enjoyed Tandridge and hope to get back this year, and Colt had a lot to do with Royal Wimbledon, was a member there, which is one of my favourites and underrated in my opinion.

[Tom_Doak]

Gentlemen:

Oh I know those architects were not afraid to toot their own horns.  The "p.r. crap" I was referring to was the opening day bonanza  complete with microphones.  Pasatiempo's wasn't bad -- a four-ball with Jones, Cyril Tolley, Marion Hollins and Glenna Collett -- but that was the exception.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Alwoodley was even lower key - it didn't have an official opening.

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

Are the par 3s at Swinley really streets ahead of St George's Hill?  The 11th at SGH is the weakest of those 9 par 3s, but is still a fine hole.  And perhaps 3,8 and 14 are as good as those 5 at Swinley?  I think the 14th is one of Colt's best unheralded par 3s.

It's interesting that when it opened (1912-13) SGH was criticised by Darwin and others as being too undulating.  Which is a bit of a laugh compared to some of the sites tackled today.  But I think it goes to show that the course was a breakthrough in terms of construction and the types of sites being considered.  It was certainly good preparation for Colt when he worked at Pine Valley soon after.

In terms of frilly heather bunkers, Swinley is more intact.

SGH was Peter Allen's favourite on the heath.

[Noel Freeman]

Many also forget the Green nine at SGH which contains the famous 20th hole which is probably as Tom Doak mentioned in his book the best of all par 3s at SGH and at Swinley too.. I quite like that 9 even if it is only about 2900 yards..


Paul Turner and I played Tandridge a few years back and while the back 9 has some lovely terrain it can't hold a candle to SGH or Swinley.. That said, the old pictures of Tandridge before trees infiltrated are amazing.

I don't find that Swinley has an indifferent hole. 1 has a prosaic tee shot but the green setting is great.  The club has strengthened the 18th with new bunkers but I must admit to thinking they don't look in character with the rest of the course yet even though heather is growing on top of them.

For me St. Georges Hill gets a little soft in spots (later in the front 9) but probably has the best hole of both courses-- I'm sorry I am partial to the 10th at SGH-- I love it even more than 12 at Swinley.  Also, I must admit I think the 11th at SGH is a fine wee pitch, if the pin is back and you overshoot the green, you can make 5 easy.

In any event, there is no finer walk on the heath than Swinley, it is pure magic.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Colt did some amazing stuff.
Too bad he had to die.  There are some folks you'd like to give a ticket on the train to great longevity.
We played a couple of his unsung courses last spring.

Tommy - I'd be interested to know which unsung courses you played and what you thought of them. I very much enjoyed Tandridge and hope to get back this year, and Colt had a lot to do with Royal Wimbledon, was a member there, which is one of my favourites and underrated in my opinion.

Sorry to be so tardy but my computer died.  I played Prestbury and Ringway.  Both are in the Manchester area.Prestbury is absolutley wonderful.  The land has great movement and the routing, greensites and bunkering are awesome.  I could play it everyday.  Ringway is on flatiish ground and is a big step below Prestbury.  The best things about Ringway are the greensites and bunkers.  For the ground he had Colt did a good job, but not great.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tommy, You also played Sandiway which was originally Ted Ray but is mostly (correct me if I'm wrong) Colt, with a couple of substitute holes put in when the Northwich by-pass was built (Dave Thomas, I think - again, I could be wildly wrong).  I know Donald Steel did some work there, but I think it was more to do with re-siting tees and paths for the safety of players.

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