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Glenn Spencer

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2007, 09:30:35 PM »
I've heard from more than one person that NCR is a very good course and perhaps Wilson's best. Anybody played it? What did you think?

I would be surprised to see someone who has played all of his courses, that doesn't like NCR the best. I have not played Cog Hill or Pine Tree though. I am sure they are tremendous competition. Coldstream is quite good, but outclassed by NCR by a pretty good margin for me. Little bit of everything as far as greens are concerned out at NCR. False fronts, back to front and front to back slopes are featured. No water on the golf course at all. Couple of good short par 4's (4,11,17)  and some gambling par 5's. The only things missing here are the 3-shot par 5 and the really long par 4. Everything is pretty much covered. Plenty of dogleg par 4's also and they go both ways.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2007, 09:50:26 PM »
Interesting article.

Anyone seen a photo of Dick Wilson? I don't think I have.

Pine Tree has a nice portrait of him hanging in the Men's card room.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2007, 10:16:56 PM »
Courtesy of The Architects Club website:


« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 10:19:20 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2007, 07:48:30 AM »
Here's a photo of Dick Wilson from January 1959 taken with officials from Yarra Yarra GC outside the clubhouse on the day he inspected the course. Seems the checked jacket made the trip to Australia too.

TEPaul

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2007, 08:11:53 AM »
"I would be surprised to see someone who has played all of his courses, that doesn't like NCR the best. I have not played Cog Hill or Pine Tree though."

Glenn:

I sure haven't played all Wilson's courses but I like Meadowbrook as much or more than NCR but that's just me, I guess---I wouldn't expect everyone to agree with me.

Personally, I think the best of Dick Wilson was some of his courses done in the 1950s not the 1960s. I think his early courses were far more "transitional" (a very interesting architectural combination of the older style pre WW2 courses and what was to come later from him). Examples are Meadowbrook and Deepdale on Long Island, NCR and maybe Bedens Brook although I don't know when the later was built. Those ones never gave me the impression of being "modern", if you know what I mean.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 08:15:35 AM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

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Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2007, 09:03:06 AM »
One of my favorite lines from Wilson was this:

"You can put a beautiful woman in an expensive dress, but if the dress doesn't fit, neither the woman nor the dress is going to look any good at all.  It's the same with building a golf course.  You got to cut the course to fit the property."

I often wonder how much influence Wilson had on Flynn and Gordon and vice versa.  I know Flynn and Wilson were not exactly best buddies.  Hard to fit two big egos in the same room.  Gil Hanse tells some interesting stories.

TEPaul

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2007, 09:22:00 AM »
Mark:

From probably the best and most direct sources available today that were privy it seems like Dick Wilson created some unusual problems for Flynn and his primary foreman William Gordon from time to time before Flynn died but that they apparently felt he had enough talent to not get sacked. I think one example from those sources that shows the credibilty of this was the fact that it was also mentioned that Dick's brother also worked for Toomey and Flynn and although not as talented didn't cause the kinds of problems Dick did from time to time which seem to have been to take things into his own hands when there wasn't supervision above him around. Some incidents involving Shinnecock are probably the best examples and that old subject of booze was apparently part of it early on.

wsmorrison

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2007, 10:05:10 AM »
I don't think that Wilson had much, if any, design influence on Flynn.  He certainly pissed Flynn off, so much so at Shinnecock that he was nearly fired, but Gordon intervened and he was kept on a very short leash.  

Perhaps there were some conceptual discussions between Flynn and his junior construction associates, but the only design work, according to documentation, was by Flynn.  None of the associates worked in the design studio, William S. Flynn Golf Architect; it was a one-man show.  They all worked for a separate entity, Toomey and Flynn Contracting Engineers.  Gordon, Red Lawrence and Ellis Maples (at Plymouth CC in North Carolina) were construction foremen and Wilson worked under either Gordon or Lawrence depending upon the project.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 10:05:42 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark_Fine

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Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2007, 10:10:31 AM »
Wayne,
Do you know if Flynn ever officially made Wilson a "design assoicate".  In my reseach, I could not find any firm indication of this but some seem to think he did?
Mark

wsmorrison

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2007, 10:24:47 AM »
I don't see why Flynn would make anyone a design associate, including Toomey, Gordon, Lawrence and Dick Wilson as none of them did any design work.  As I said, they were employed by Toomey and Flynn Contracting Engineers and not by Flynn's design studio.  1933 business stationary does not even include Wilson on the list of associates.  As previously stated, he worked under Lawrence and Gordon and never was a foreman on a project but rather was the head of some work crews.

What sources did you use for your research on this subject?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 10:26:06 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2007, 10:44:39 AM »
Wayne,
Every source I could think of.  I spent days at The Golf House, called contacts at Wilson courses, etc. etc.  Cornish and Whitten note in their book that they believe Wilson was made a design associate.  Honestly, I never asked either of them how they came to that conclusion nor did I really care about the title.  I didn't think much of it.  

John Pflum

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Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2007, 10:59:28 AM »
FWIW -- Here are a bunch of Coldstream photos I took when I played there last fall.

Submitted without comment.   :-X

http://www.pbase.com/jpflumjr/coldstream
--
jvdp

TEPaul

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2007, 01:40:20 PM »
Mark Fine:

You ask if Dick Wilson was made a "design associate" in Toomey and Flynn and yet you say you don't care about the title. You say you spent days researching this kind of thing in the USGA or wherever. Is there any particular reason you spent all that time researching Wilson's position in the Toomey and Flynn company or what his relationship was with Flynn?

We have a pretty strong opinion of not just what the set-up and structure and modus operandi of that company was but more importantly and much more interestingly, in my opinion, why it was set up, structured as it was and worked the way it did.  I think we posted that all before on here but would be glad to again.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2007, 03:45:12 PM »
Tom,
I was doing research on Wilson for the architect section of our Hazards book as well as for a potential master plan project.  The reason I was not too concerned about the title (which came from C&W's book) was that I knew Wilson was heavily involved with Flynn courses and one way or the other they were going to influence each other regardless of the title he held.  Furthermore, my research focus was more on Wilson after he was on his own.  Some of what we found is included in the book.  As you know, he never wrote much of anything (at least that I could find).  

wsmorrison

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2007, 04:31:38 PM »
"...Wilson was heavily involved with Flynn courses and one way or the other they were going to influence each other regardless of the title he held."

This heavy involvement you speak of did not, to the best of our knowledge (from Connie Lagerman and David Gordon) involve anything beyond heading a work crew.  Any influence would have been Flynn to Wilson.  Why do you continue to say they were influencing each other regardless of title held?  He worked for the construction company that built courses to Flynn's designs, and never as a lead foreman.  Wilson did not work for the design company.

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2007, 04:52:26 PM »
Wayne:  I notice many of the Dick Wilson work down here in Florida and in the Bahamas was work with Joe Lee.  Again when it comes to routing, which is to my way of thinking the most functional way to evaluate great architecture, I see more of Joe Lee than Dick Wilson.  Back to Bidermann, its again with Joe Lee.

wsmorrison

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2007, 05:00:46 PM »
I agree with you that the routing is the key determinant in evaluating golf course architecture.  I don't know enough of Dick Wilson's work to say much about his routing skills.  I thought Bidermann was very well done, but I don't know Joe Lee's role in all of that; I know he was made a full partner shortly before Wilson died.  What about Robert von Hagge?  Let's see, a list of the Dick Wilson's I've played is very meager:

Bidermann
Wilmington CC
Radnor Valley
Westmoreland

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2007, 05:06:28 PM »
 Well, I have played three that Wayne (not Westmoreland)has plus Laurel Valley and wonder what daring choices Wilson made in his rouitngs.
AKA Mayday

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2007, 05:27:03 PM »
Joe Lee's Bent Pine is one of my favorites here in Vero.  Bedens Brook in Princeton, NJ is another by Wilson and Lee which I have played.  Treasure Cay is a lot of fun, with good routing.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2007, 07:03:08 PM »
Wayne,
Flynn and Wilson worked together (we agree on that).  When two people work together, they tend to influence each other (in some way).  That is my opinion and I'm sticking with it.  If the "design associate thing bothers you, I suggest you contact Whitten or Cornish to see why they believe Wilson went from construction superintendent to later on a design associate.  I assume they wrote that for a reason and didn't make it up.  
Mark

wsmorrison

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2007, 07:15:11 PM »
Well, If that's good enough for you and you find something meaningful in that determination, who am I to argue?  Just to be clear, I never implied that Messrs. Cornish and Whitten made up their story of Dick Wilson being made a design associate.  Dick Wilson told the members at Shinnecock that he designed their course while working for Flynn.  It eventually got in to the club history.  Is that the truth?

By the way, as of 1943 Dick Wilson was still not listed on any company stationary.  That is the year that William Gordon left the firm.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 07:16:28 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2007, 08:12:07 PM »
This is an interesting discussion on Wilson.  At Plymouth Country Club, Flynn was the Architect who designed the course while Wilson and Ellis Maples were "Construction Supervisors."  

What is interesting is that Wilson designed a course on his own that same year, Pine Crest Country Club in Lumberton, NC.  Wilson was brought there by Daisy Sunday Meehan and her brother Pete Sundy whom Wilson had become aquainted to during the Sundy's time living in Delray Beach, FL.  Wilson designed the original nine holes of Pine Crest (FKA Lumberton Golf Course).  The course was constructed using WPA funds.  The design, the green complexes in particular, remind me of Plymouth.  They have very much a "Shinnecock lite" look and have collars that are mowed at fairway height where a ball with run off down the hill.  Wilson's hole are today #1,2,3,8,9,10,11,17 & 18.  There have been a couple of changes, the current 8th green was moved further back and the hole changed to a par five, the 10th hole ws lengthened, and the final green were redone in 1955 and it blends in with the surrounding terrain much more than the rest of the Wilson holes.  The bunkers were rebuilt by Russell Breeden during I believe the 1990s and don't fit the Flynn style that was built at Plymouth.  Although the exact dates of when he was at Plymouth cannot be confirmed, we know that Wilson left Plymouth and went to Pine Crest.

Donald Ross designed the other nine holes in 1946 and were constructed in circa 1955.  


Glenn Spencer

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2007, 09:00:56 PM »
"I would be surprised to see someone who has played all of his courses, that doesn't like NCR the best. I have not played Cog Hill or Pine Tree though."

Glenn:

I sure haven't played all Wilson's courses but I like Meadowbrook as much or more than NCR but that's just me, I guess---I wouldn't expect everyone to agree with me.

Personally, I think the best of Dick Wilson was some of his courses done in the 1950s not the 1960s. I think his early courses were far more "transitional" (a very interesting architectural combination of the older style pre WW2 courses and what was to come later from him). Examples are Meadowbrook and Deepdale on Long Island, NCR and maybe Bedens Brook although I don't know when the later was built. Those ones never gave me the impression of being "modern", if you know what I mean.

TEPaul,

The fact that you like Meadowbrook more than NCR is completely understandable. I followed Mike Joyce around that course a few times in the old Northville Long Island Senior event, but I never got a chance to play it. In saying NCR is probably the best, I forgot about Meadowbrook, but that doesn't change my thinking. Once again though, I can see why you liked Meadowbrook. Deepdale is very solid, also. I would like to let you know that NCR has come a long way since 1998 though. I am really wondering if you would still feel the same today. I can get it easily, but I think the chronology was the USGA visited and NCR wanted an AM, or Senior Open and that is when all of the tree removal and bunkering was changed. You probably don't remember, but could you see the 1st green from the 8th tee, the par 3? It used to be completely isolated, but now it is wide open. Could you see the 7th green from the 8th tee looking down and back? What did you think of the first 3 holes? If ever near Dayton again, look me up for a game and you can see how much better it is. The North has added some length and is quite a challenge today as well.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2007, 09:48:52 PM »

"...Wilson was heavily involved with Flynn courses and one way or the other they were going to influence each other regardless of the title he held."

This heavy involvement you speak of did not, to the best of our knowledge (from Connie Lagerman and David Gordon) involve anything beyond heading a work crew.  Any influence would have been Flynn to Wilson.  Why do you continue to say they were influencing each other regardless of title held?  He worked for the construction company that built courses to Flynn's designs, and never as a lead foreman.  Wilson did not work for the design company.

Wayne,

I wouldn't dismiss Wilson's contributions based solely on the basis that he wasn't a design associate, working for the design company.

Quite often, amendments to original designs are made in the field, by field foreman and others.

Wilson's subsequent work, when he was on his own, would seem to evidence his inherent and/or acquired design skills.
Hence, he would seem eminently qualified to contribute to the design process, albeit, in the field.

It would seem likely that he had "field" and "final" imput.

As to exactly what he did, that's hard to identify.

Listening to Bill Coore describe how # 8 at Hidden Creek came into existance was informative and indicative of how designs get changed in the field, but aren't recorded for posterity.
While Hidden Creek is acknowledged as a C&C design, the 8th hole was the work of the "field" personel and not constructed as originally called for in the design office/plan.

In discussing Dick Wilson, let's not be so quick to attribute shared design work to Joe Lee.   Remember, Dick Wilson was dead when C&W penned their reference book, hence, their source isn't from the "horses mouth".

Let's not forget Robert Von Hagge either, he's another Wilson disciple who went on to design numerous courses.

TEPaul

Re:Dick Wilson article
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2007, 10:14:44 PM »
Glenn:

I'm sorry to say when I played tournament golf or tried to I was just one of those unfortunate people who couldn't seem to notice much at all about architecture. I do remember the 1st, 2nd and 3rd, though, perhaps the tenth and then a few holes I can't recall the number of. I think I remember how surprised I was that the first green ran away from the approach as it did. Is that correct? The 2nd was a pretty tough par 3, correct, and the 3rd a good par 4?

I liked Meadowbrook because I was so familiar with it (my Dad belonged to it and the whole place used to belong to my mother's best friend) and it had very much an old style look to it at least back in those days. It was also fairly unusual for a course in that day because of some of the really enormous greens it had.