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Lloyd_Cole

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Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2007, 10:10:17 AM »
LLoyd,
Your point is taken.  Maybe we need to be clear on what we are discussing.  But somethings aren't black and white and hazards (in my opinion) are one of them.  

Here are a few more quotes from Ross:

"In the British Courses, heather, whins, and bent grass are in many cases left growing in a diagonal formation, producing a remarkably interesting hazard."

"By natural hazards, we refer to ravines, broken faces of the land, brooks, and the like, each of which should be used to its best advantage."

On the discussion of mounds and pots, Ross states, "Where it is desirable to cover a large area of ground, hazards of this kind can be used advantageously."  He goes on to say, "But it is not necessary to fill these shallow pits with any sand.  Both the high parts and hollows may be covered over with coarse grass if desired."  

Is Ross talking about hazards or not?  Maybe he should have been clearer on his use of the word hazards.  I don't think he cared as to him it was obvious that they things were hazardous?
Mark  


Mark
Undoubtably there are innumerable examples. The word 'hazard' has a much broader application in general usage than it's defintion in the USGA and R and A rules of today.
But we are a forum for discussion here, and I propose that we do our utmost to make the debate as productive as possible. Therefore I suggest I we use the lexicon of the rules as a given, a starting point, and if we work from there, it is likely that confusion can be more easily avoided.
Take the terms 'waste bunker' and 'waste area', for example - one causes confusion, one does not. I would suggest that the term 'waste bunker' be avoided at all costs. etc, etc.

Your post is especially timely, as in the shower, just now, I was sketcing out a new topic - it was to be titled 'AL - Alternative Lexicon' - When strating threads where your argument is based upon an unconventional use of language, please label 'AL'...
...looks like there may be no need for it.

JESII

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Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2007, 10:13:26 AM »
Branden and Mark,

Water hazards on the golf course cannot elicit positive feelings in the golfer with respect to his game. Within a round of golf there are many dynamics, and the "stop and smell the roses" aspect is one of the strongest assets the game itself has. It can be a liesurely walk in the park. But there is also the scoring dynamic. The ability to segregate the two is invaluable because you get more out of each when they are not dependent on each other. So Mark, I am working on the smelling the roses, but I can tell you, you must try to score as well as you can to make the game everything it can be. You also have to do all the other stuff as well, but you cannot discount the scoring.

The scoring dynamic is absolutely essential to the game itself. If you guys try to change that...ie: teach people to forget about their final score and just enjoy the "walk", you will lose a great portion of the golfing population. The competition is the key, be it match play, medal play or whatever. In the hole in the fewest strokes is the game, and water  hazards are places to avoid in that effort. You guys know this, hell every example Mark has given through all these haard conversations end up being the same old things we've always tried to avoid anyway...water, bunkers, heather and whins, grassy hollows etc...

In that scoring world, let's talk about these water hazards you guys think elicit positive feelings among golfers

Quote
I'm sure Branden can hold his own, but aren't you really limiting your perspective?  Don't you ever look at a water feature and think "opportunity", or "beauty" or "risk/reward", or "peacefulness",....From a card and pencil perspective it could be viewed as "bad" but that is a very limited perspective is it not?

If you can show me a single golfer that thinks opportunity or risk/reward when they look at a water hazard I'll show you someone not thinking about shooting the lowest score. You look at the safe zone that water hazard protects and determine the risk/reward ratio, or the opportunity value to hitting it into that favorable position. The peacefullness and beauty thought are fine, but they belong in the "walk in the park" conversation.

Do you see people taking on water hazards for the fun of it? I am sure you do, do you know what game they are playing? They're playing the golf equivalent of the basketball game HORSE. Do you design your courses for those guys?

Eric_Terhorst

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Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2007, 10:37:06 AM »
Thanks Mark Fine,

The Ross comments seem clear to me even though they're extracted.  I understand he's talking about design elements that can be used to create strategic interest or test players' skill.  

But re-reading the thread, I realize Mark Pearce in his first post had the correct answer to Scott's question, "When is a green...etc"  The answer is  "Never--a green is a green."  The questions I have learned most from around here are variations on the theme of: HOW can a green (or fairway, or hazard) be designed differently or better to create strategic interest?  What elements can be added to the design of a hole to make it better? HOW can maintenance practices be used to affect strategy or tests of skill?  

I agree with Lloyd and Mark P. that elastic language has a high potential to create not insight but confusion, tedious navel-gazing, or to borrow a phrase I recently enjoyed in the Wall St. Journal, a "spittle-flecked catfight."

Mark_Fine

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Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2007, 10:52:51 AM »
Jim,
You stated:
“If you can show me a single golfer that thinks opportunity or risk/reward when they look at a water hazard I'll show you someone not thinking about shooting the lowest score.”

Let me tell you one of my favorite water hazard stories.  It happens to be one of Geoff Shackelford’s favorites as well.  We liked it so much, we included it in our book.  Geoff talks about a situation that occurred at Augusta National’s famous par-5, 13th. For many years, the creek fronting the green was a combination of trickling water, pebbles, grass,
and an occasional sand bar. This “irregularity” of the water hazard added to the temptations of a player who was not sure
whether to risk going for the green in two shots. By offering danger and also the chance of recovery, the hazard in front of No. 13 created major headaches for the best players in the world. But then someone decided the hole would be better served if the creek were filled with several feet of water,
thus eliminating the opportunity for those occasional recovery shots. This was supposed to make the short par-5 more difficult. But raising the water level actually made the hole simpler for the best players in the world. Now that the creek offered no chance of recovery, a good player who was 235-
yards away with a hanging lie had virtually no temptation to go for the green. The decision was already made. Had the creek stayed unpredictable with an off-chance of recovery, the same player might well have attempted to reach the green in two. Fortunately, portions of that irregular element
have been restored to this creek.

Without question, golfers are thinking risk/reward and opportunity when they look at that water hazard especially in its irregular form.    

And yes I absolutely do see people taking on water hazards for the fun of it.   Ask my buddy how much fun he had holing out with a long iron from the fairway on #8 at Pebble Beach.  Of course it was for a par (he had already dumped one on the beach) but none the less it was the greatest par of his life  ;D

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2007, 10:57:28 AM »
Eric,
Ask some of the members of a course like Rolling Green what they call the false fronts on some of thier greens  ;)  I can all but guarantee you that the architect knew what they were  ;)  But anyway, call them what you want, no problem.  

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2007, 11:00:41 AM »
 Mark,

   I don't think we can use that kind of language on this site.

 BTW what did the architect call them?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 11:11:54 AM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2007, 11:05:53 AM »
Mark,

So you're saying the guys in The Masters were trying to get their ball to stop on the dry areas down in the creek-bed?


#8 at Pebble...cool story, but I am missing how he "took on the water for the fun of it". The end result may have been fun, but that's my point all along...it should be up to the architects to make me, the golfer, want to take on these hazards as my decision that the ratio of success will outweigh the penalty of failure.  

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2007, 11:15:01 AM »
Scott Witter,

I am not sure how to get this conversation back to some semblence of your topic, for what it's worth, I am curious about your USGA experience. Care to get into that at all?

Mark_Fine

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Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2007, 11:15:56 AM »
Jim,
Read the story again.  

By the way, would #17 at The TPC at Sawgrass be as exciting and as much fun to play if the green were flat and there was no water around it?
Mark
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 11:18:58 AM by Mark_Fine »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2007, 11:36:34 AM »
Mark,

I read the story, my response was facetious because you seem to imply that the opportunity was that the ball might be playable anyway. In case you don't understand why they began laying up from the questionable distances, THE RISKS CHANGED! The hole didn't become easier, as you think, the decision became clearer. What do you think the pros would do if the creek bed were totally dry and grassed through? Would anyone ever lay up? Why?


RE: #17 at Sawgrass...how would it be to play if the green were 25% of its present size?


All you're doing is illustrating the negative connotations of these hazards while trying to tell me they're actually positive.

JESII

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Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2007, 11:42:00 AM »
Sean,

I'd like to refer to your picture from earlier on this thread.

Where is the ideal position to drive your ball? If it depends on the hole location, please explain the possibilities.

How does the ridge line effect balls hoping to get to the ideal location?


EDIT - - - sorry, picture is from the most exciting shots thread.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 11:42:54 AM by JES II »

Scott Witter

Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2007, 11:42:43 AM »
Jim:

Neither do I and nor do I care for either.  I was simply wondering as it relates directly to design, about how golfers might interpret hazards and what elements, if any, on the course could they consider to be hazardous to their game...perhaps next time I will try to reword my subject title and question such that it is NOT CONFUSING to anyone in the forum...man....what a waste of time to  STICK TO THE SUBJECT.  I really don't have time for this "spittle flecked catfight"  ;D

"I am curious about your USGA experience. Care to get into that at all?"

Maybe with IM, but not today I am flat out with a deadline.  It wasn't much, but I did find it interesting to listen and learn.  Oh yeah, that is still possible on this site isn't it?? ;)  Thanks for the input.

wsmorrison

Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2007, 12:09:20 PM »
Sean,

If certain architectural or natural features be used to an advantage in certain circumstances if considered and played properly, how are they hazards?  Mounds can deflect shots in an ideal direction, ridges can stop balls or turboboost shots, hollows can prevent balls from caroming farther out of line or OOB, etc yet you wish to paint them all as hazards.  

How are such features supposed to be hazards if at times they aid the proper shot?  In my opinion it is because they aren't hazards.  While you are correct that you can play or drop out of hazards and non-hazards alike, you cannot ground your club in a hazard so why call other features where you can ground the club hazards?


Lloyd_Cole

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Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2007, 12:59:57 PM »
I find this a bizarre topic because people want to call a hazard a hazard as it were based solely on the rules of the game.

Sean
I am not going to do a Pat Mucci. But if you don't see the logic in Wayne's or my argument, then I am really at a loss.

And this is no catfight. I am simply trying to argue for an order that might make argument and discussion at this site more productive. I see no point in taking part in a discussion where the meaning of a key phrase is moot.

Lloyd_Cole

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Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2007, 01:12:19 PM »
From the Wittgenstein entry in Wikipedia -

On Wittgenstein's account, language is inextricably woven into the fabric of life, and as part of that fabric it works relatively unproblematically. Philosophical problems arise, on this account, when language is forced from its proper home and into a metaphysical environment, where all the familiar and necessary landmarks and contextual clues are absent. Removed, perhaps, for what appear to be sound philosophical reasons, but which leads, for Wittgenstein, to the source of the problem. Wittgenstein describes this metaphysical environment as like being on frictionless ice[citation needed]; where the conditions are apparently perfect for a philosophically and logically perfect language (the language of the Tractatus), where all philosophical problems can be solved without the confusing and muddying effects of everyday contexts; but where, just because of the lack of friction, language can in fact do no actual work at all. There is much talk in the Investigations, then, of “idle wheels” and language being “on holiday” or a mere "ornament", all of which are used to express the idea of what is lacking in philosophical contexts. To resolve the problems encountered there, Wittgenstein argues that philosophers must leave the frictionless ice and return to the “rough ground” of ordinary language in use; that is, philosophers must “bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use.”
In this regard, one can see affinities between Wittgenstein and Kant. In the Critique of Pure Reason, Kant argues that when concepts grounded in experience are applied outside of the range of possible experience, the result is contradictions and confusion. Thus the second part of the Critique consists of refutations, typically by reductio ad absurdum, of logical proofs of the existence of god and the existence of souls, and deconstructions of strong notions of infinity and necessity. In this way, Wittgenstein's objections to applying words outside the contexts in which they have an established meaning mirror Kant's objections to the non-empirical use of empirical reason.
Returning to the rough ground of ordinary uses of words is, however, easier said than done. Philosophical problems have the character of depth and run as deep as the forms of language and thought that set philosophers on the road to confusion. Wittgenstein therefore speaks of “illusions”, "bewitchment" and “conjuring tricks” performed on our thinking by our forms of language, and tries to break their spell by attending to differences between superficially similar aspects of language which he feels leads to this type of confusion. For much of the Investigations, then, Wittgenstein tries to show how philosophers are led away from the ordinary world of language in use by misleading aspects of language itself. He does this by looking in turn at the role language plays in the development of various philosophical problems, from some general problems involving language itself, then at the notions of rules and rule following, and then on to some more specific problems in philosophy of mind. Throughout these investigations, the style of writing is conversational with Wittgenstein in turn taking the role of the puzzled philosopher (on either or both sides of traditional philosophical debates), and that of the guide attempting to show the puzzled philosopher the way back: the “way out of the fly bottle.”
Much of the Investigations, then, consists of examples of how philosophical confusion is generated and how, by a close examination of the actual workings of everyday language, the first false steps towards philosophical puzzlement can be avoided. By avoiding these first false steps, philosophical problems themselves simply no longer arise and are therefore dissolved rather than solved. As Wittgenstein puts it; "the clarity we are aiming at is indeed complete clarity. But this simply means that the philosophical problems should completely disappear."

wsmorrison

Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2007, 02:00:00 PM »
That may be true, but that doesn't mean they are all of a kind.  You can ground your club in those hollows and on those humps but you cannot in the bunkers.  It is simple, unless you choose it not to be.

Mark Pearce

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Re:When is a green an interesting feature and when is it a 'hazard'?
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2007, 02:11:23 PM »
Is the English language really so poor that we can't find a word to describe a feature of a golf course that challenges the golfer and is best avoided if we don't use the word "hazard"?

Going back to the original question and adopting the term "obstacle" rather than "hazard" it seems to me that the whole of the green can never be an obstacle, rather some features of it (mounds, ridges) can be.

I also wonder why this is an either/or question?  Surely a well conceived obstacle is an interesting feature?  It seems to me that the gully across the 16th green at North Berwick is a perfect example of a feature of a green that is an obstacle.  It is undoubtedly one of the most interesting features of the whole course.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 02:11:45 PM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

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