[TEPaul]

Joe:

It obviously shows what happens with excessive "hybridization" of living things. That's why I refer to modern American agronomy as the "Emergency Ward". It's called weird science---or too much cross breeding eventually creates really little dicks. And that's why that old 328 Bermudagrass of yours that was way over a foot is now referred to as the all-time "Mandingo" of golf course grasses.

[Anthony_Nysse]

TEPAUL-
  You're spot on with your assumption of bermudagrass!   Thanksfully, I'm from that north as WE did win the war!

Joe-At least in my area, these new ultradwarfts (Tifeagle, Champion, Mini Verde) have shallow root rozes, which is also part of the reason that we're finding that they tend to rut easily after aerification. Any plugging or sodding that has to be done after transition is very difficult because nothing wants to hold together. Our 419 fairways have a much better root system though.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[TEPaul]

Anthony:

All the kidding aside, are you perhaps mentioning a few unwelcome realities that seems to be the result of the constant on-going hybridization, miniaturization and God-only-knows-what-else of plant life? Is modern golf agronomy going the way of the ultra inbred Collie that ended up with a two inch wide head and a brain the size of a pinhead?  

[Anthony_Nysse]

Keep in mind that bermudagrass is a "whole nuther animal" than bent. These grasses are designed to survive the high temps and humidy with out shi**ing out, though they have shallow roots. We don't have too many problem with the deep and infrequent water schedule-helps to fluch out salts also.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[TEPaul]

Anthony:

What do you think would happen if you bred a male bermuda to a female bent or a male bent to a female bermuda?

It sounds to me like Bermudagrass has some real assets for interesting playability. I'd love to have some up here but we'll need to get them some pretty good little winter jackets or long-johnnies first.

What would happen if you threw some really attractive, nubile bermudas, bents, poas, fescues, zoysias and whatever other stray plant life cats and dogs into a bedroom and let them have an orgy?

[S. Huffstutler]

SteveH:

Why would it sacrifice the putting surface to grow deeper roots? Do you mean trying to grow deeper roots would sacrifice the quality of the "playability" of the putting surface or the health of the turf----or both?

I'm also interested in learning more about the pros and cons of deeper roots in other areas of the course such as the fairways, particularly the approaches.

I think I started a thread once about dormancy but perhaps not. My question is, with deeper roots or less irrigation is it possible to extend the length of dormancy and if so isn't that a good thing for the general health and endurance of the plant?

Unfortunately, on my Champion greens, the root zone is very shallow, so deep and infrequent just pushes water past the root zone. I have discussed this at length with the turf breeder and unfortunately, these newer varieties if hybrid bermuda are shallow rooted and we just have to get used to the idea. If I water deep and infrequently, I wind up with a dead surface, which means that I have to find another job, so, I water deeply occasionally, but I try to keep my shallow rootzone moderately moist without sacrificing firm conditions. It's a very fine line and requires daily monitoring, but it works.

Steve

[Anthony_Nysse]

Steve,
  I know guys that water every night on their ultradwarfts. We're fartunate enough to have some interns that spot water in the afternoons. Does the deep and infrequest (2x a week) help with the depth of the roots? Not really, but does allow for a little firmer, dryer surface. It's seems like a crap shoot sometimes trying to water the new ultradwarfts-they do tend to burn up VERY fast if one isn't careful/

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[S. Huffstutler]

My budget doesn't allow for much, if any hand watering.....labor = $, so I use wetting agents a lot and try to keep my greens moist, but not wet. It can be a tall task, especially when you factor in nematode problems, mole crickets, army worms...you name it, we got it. So I use wetting agents religiously and check my soil profiles daily.

Steve

[SL_Solow]

I participated in an annual seminar 2 weeks ago devoted to educating greens chairman in the Chicago area.  3 greenkeepers who had transitioned to the newer bent varieties (all in the A family) were on the panel.  They specifically noted the increased root mass and depth in the newer breeds of bent (which are hybrids developed by experimentation Tom Paul).  They far exceed earlier varieties of bent and poa.  While their roots follow a similar pattern to that described, they start deeper (1 greenkeeper claims roots over a foot deep) and shrink less thus giving the plants a better chance in hot weather.  The root depth is said to exist even with the extreme short cuts .

[TEPaul]

Shel:

Good post there. We've got to try to bring this subject together somehow into somewhat of a better, more effective and understandable consensus. Do you really wonder why people are confused?

We laymen are never going to gain the agronomic knowledge of superintendents, nor should we be expected to. This is going to have to come down to a better dialogue between green committee people on playabilty and the agronomic realities from superintendents. Too much is getting lost in the translation here, in my opinion.

[SL_Solow]

Tom,  you are correct on this issue.  The Chicago District sponsors an annual seminar for Greens Chairman and committee members which may be held more frequently in the future because of the excellent response.  For several years I have been fortunate enough to moderate the program.  Our panel usually consists of 3 greenkeepers (rotated among professionals in the district) our professional staff agronomist, sometimes a USGA agronomist, oftentimes an architect, and me , representing the District and greens chairmen.  It covers a variety of topics including running a committee, budgeting, interacting with the membership, various agronomic issues, revisions and remodelling etc.  It gives greens chairman an opportunity to hear directly from professionals and to exchange ideas with their peers.  I have been a greens chairman or club Pres. for about 15 years and I always learn something from these meetings.  I think similar meetings would be valuable to any association of clubs.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Just keep in mind that new grass on new greens almost always results in deeper roots. Getting long roots on fresh, open sand with ample pore space is not all that hard, keeping those long roots in the coming years as the pore space starts to diminish is the challenge.
Deep rooting turf is dependant on so many different factors that it's very tough to come up with any real "generalizations" about why you have deep roots or the benefit of deeper rooting. You can have the greatest rooting grass possible but you'll have shallow roots if the soil is compacted, and you could have the greatest rootzone possible and ultradwarf bermuda/poa annua is still going to struggle setting down anything more than 3 inches. The plants are dwarfed...and that includes the roots.

If you’re growing cool-season turf in areas with tough summers, rooting depth matters, as you’ll slough roots once the soil temps hit 80+.

I believe one of the best tools developed in recent years to promote stronger rooting is the use of growth retardants. They suppress top growth with out slowing down the roots resulting in a higher ratio of root mass to top growth. I’m a huge believer in this benefit and although I’ve seen thatch accumulate at a faster rate when growth retardants are regularly used, the additional thatch is not hard to plan for and it's a good trade off for plants that are more resistant to stress.

[Steve Okula]

Don knows what he's talking about.

I have Penncross/Poa greens, use a lot of Primo growth regulator, and have roots about 3-4 inches deep, mowing at 1/8" year round on sand-based greens. Wilt is rarely a problem, even when the temperature goes well above 90°F.
We water nightly with sprinklers, and during the day with hand hose supplement, and yes, lots of wetting agent.

TE Paul, regarding hybridization, every hybrid I know of is between two species of the same genus, as in "Agrostis", the genus of bentgrass, or "Cynodon", the genus of bermuda. To my knowledge, no one has ever been able to hybridize between different genera. Thus, we are not about to see a bermuda/bent hybrid.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

" There are studies to back up that as long as you let the crown of the plant dry out in between waterings, you are encouraging root growth.  In addition, this is a sort of pre stress conditioning that allows the plant to survive an assortment of weather conditions or pump failures.  I think root depth and quality are great indicators of plant health. "

MichaelS:

Thanks for that post. Would you say that 'pre-stress conditioning' you mentioned that allows the plant to survive an assortment of weather conditions or pump failures is basically the same thing as increasing the length of "dormancy" as I mentioned above or asked about?

TEPaul,  Your comments on dormancy is what made me think of the pre stress conditioning.  You ask a tough question, taking it to the extreme, do I want  my turf to stay asleep and wake up just in time before the summer heat?  No, I want to take advantage of the spring root growing weather.  But allowing the turf to come out of dormancy slowly and on its own terms may be the happy medium.  You don't just want to pile the water and fertilizer on it and wake it up...you will just have lush, fat grass...a grass that hasn't had any environmental cues that it needs to grow roots.

[Pat Brockwell]

Coming out of dormancy can be very tricky.  A late hard cold snap can really set the turf back, especially if it is very lush.  The use of covers can cause the plant to wake up too soon, I've seen it happen.  The approach I like is a late season (soil temps below 50F) feeding of ammonium sulphate.  The frosty nights will signal the plant to put the energy into root storage rather than top growth, and your spring greenup  will come without the need for early fert. That's on cool season turf.

[Eric Morrison]

Getting back to the original post, a couple of items have been missed here as the conversation turned to irrigation practices...alleviation of soil compaction, thatch control and topdressing. These are key components to a turf management program that can help provide firmer, faster playing conditions with sound irrigation practices. Some courses soil structure, environments, and round counts can all impact and drive the way one irrigates. It is impossible to water deep and infrequently if you have push up greens, are near the water with the constant breeze, and doing 40K rounds a year. So the turf management program must be tailored to the envirnoment and type of facility one is at. Sound agronomic practices, such as aeration, topdressing, spiking, and a good irrigation system and irrigating practices will help those pesky poa plants survive the summer (if you have to keep them alive!) with those small roots...hopefully.

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