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Tony Petersen

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Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« on: March 16, 2007, 06:05:03 PM »
So, just got done talking with a friend of mine who happens to be building a private club on his estate in Canada... You can probably guess who ;) Anyways, we got to talking about the work that Flynn did for JD Rockefeller at Pocantico Hills in '37. I did a search, found some great photos and insight to the course. My question is how hard is this course to get on? Is it purely "friends of the family" or would a PGA request be entertained on occasion??? I'm planning a tour of the E. Coast greats this summer, and this seems like a "must play." Or, is it an "impossible to play" ??? :o ;D
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Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2007, 06:39:18 PM »


Impossible access for most. ;D

We may have found the course where the owners truly don't care about their ranking.  
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wsmorrison

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2007, 07:44:20 PM »
Tony,

I wrote a history of Pocantico Hills Golf Course and know it well.  The design is fascinating with 18 holes playing to 10 single greens and one double green.  It reverses on itself on several holes (thus 18 holes) and also allows "courses within a course," that is multiple routing progressions.  It is an important design in American golf on the most magnificent estate in America, bar none.  

We found all of the original plans for the course and Craig Disher and Dan Wexler provided us old aerials (though not very detailed).  I've taken some ground photographs but could always use more, so I am very interested in the photographs you have located.

It is, as you guessed, a very private family course with very limited friends and family play.  Unless you know a family member to call, there isn't anyone to contact to request play.  Feel free to email me for additional information.  

Hamilton,
What club did you tee off with on 18?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 07:53:15 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2007, 10:41:27 PM »
ah, the great alias Hamilton B Hearst!
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jim Nugent

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2007, 01:04:27 AM »
Quote from: HamiltonBHearst on March 16, 2007, 06:39:18 PM


Impossible access for most. ;D

We may have found the course where the owners truly don't care about their ranking.  

Hammy, have you played there?  What do you think of the course?    

Your second sentence there surprises me a bit.  Would think they want the best of everything on their estate: art, furnishings, house, and golf course.  
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Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2007, 02:46:36 AM »
Seems that Ahab may have found his Moby Dick  ;) ;) Or so one would have thought ;D

Wayne, the photos I mentioned were on old GCA posts (around 300-400 days). What a grand adventure it must have been to document such a diamond of the Golden Age... History is the truth of tales, and Pocantico must have many a yarn from the days of yore ;)

Either and anyway, thanks for the info... Seems like a study in design that would be a case-study for the likes of GCA.com ;)
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Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Andrew Cunningham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2007, 07:38:08 AM »
Tony,

Where in Canada is your friend building his course - i.e. what province?  Just curious.....
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TEPaul

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2007, 08:30:40 AM »
Re: Pocantico Hills, there is a chapter in the back of Wethered and Simpson's "The Architectural Side of Golf" entitled "In an English Garden" that seems somewhat applicable to this fairly unusual reversable nine hole course. Brad Klein's recent interesting thread on here entitled "Is a Golf Course a Garden" is probably applicable to Pocantico Hills golf course in some sense as well.

The Pocantico Hills course has some similarities to normal courses in its layout but it has quite a few differences too.

The course is laid out across massive stretches of lawn that is of the length of light rough----there are no distinct fairways at Pocantico as we've come to know and expect with fairways delineated by rough (even light rough).

The greens are very small and often of natural landform grade and would probably be fairly invisible (compared to normal golf greens) if they did not have flags in them.

In the style of what must have been "garden" golf as mentioned by Wethered and Simpson one feels he is playing over and around obstacles such as trees and such that are part of the massive landscape architecture of the Pocantico Hills estate. However, the course does have some sand bunkering around some greens.

If you play the course after the greens have been freshly mowed the green speed is probably around 2, although the overall slope of one green is perhaps 6-9%.

But Pocantico Hills golf course is a remarkable example of a different type of golf and architecture that is probably befitting a family like the Rockefellers in that you can certainly air it out here and there on the course---eg there area a couple of holes that pass as a par 5.

Nevertheless, the experience is perhaps more of a "golf in a garden" feeling even if on a large scale.
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TEPaul

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2007, 08:40:22 AM »
I should also mention that incongruity of all incongruities, Pocantico Hills actually has a fair number of golf carts for the amount of play on the course which I would guess would be something like 637 rounds per year, if that.  ;)

Although we love golf architecture on here if you went there and played the course the thing that would strike you most is the size and impressiveness of Pocantico Hills itself.

Believe me, I have seen some truly remarkable estates in this world but the Rockefeller's Pocantico Hills pretty much takes the cake, at least on this side of the ocean. And that includes even San Simeon, although it would be a close contest, I guess, before the Hearsts gave up most of it.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2007, 08:41:51 AM by TEPaul »
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wsmorrison

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2007, 08:55:11 AM »
Tony,

As Tom Paul said, it is like playing golf amidst a garden while also surrounded by gardens all high atop the Hudson River.  There are a number of formal gardens including the inner walled Italian gardens by William Welles Bosworth (MIT and Ecole des Beaux Arts), a Japanese garden (with a beautiful teahouse), rose garden, morning garden, orange tree garden and a brook garden.  The estate has an impressive collection of classical sculptures and modern sculptures by Noguchi, Lippincott, Liberman, Calder, Picasso, Moore, Brancusi among others.

The greens, which were small to begin with, have gotten much smaller over time.  They encourage precise iron play and have a great deal of slope.
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wsmorrison

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2007, 09:12:13 AM »
Mark,

Here is a view of the carriage house at Pocantico Hills:



Speaking of carriage houses, here is a view of one that Tom Paul will instantly recognize:



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TEPaul

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2007, 09:40:26 AM »
Wayne:

I don't know that I do recognize that place but I guess if you gave me one guess I might say it is presently on Cabrini College. And if that's the case, the lore is that place is seriously haunted. Do you know why?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2007, 09:41:48 AM by TEPaul »
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wsmorrison

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2007, 09:42:44 AM »
Good guess, Tom.  You mean to say that you never had any rolls in the hay in that carriage house?   Or was it out of the family by the time you came along?
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wsmorrison

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2007, 02:02:50 PM »
Tony,

JD Rockefeller's house, Kykuit, is open to the public, the remainder of the grounds is private and remains held by the family.  You can see a fair amount of the golf course from the outdoor areas open to the public.  The logistics for the house tour on are on the web.

Tom,

Why is the carriage house haunted?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2007, 02:06:47 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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Michael Christensen

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2007, 02:12:16 PM »
figures the insecure HBH would post his thought on an ultra-private estate course....still hiding behind the mask, huh?

what a fraud you are!
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HamiltonBHearst

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2007, 06:44:48 PM »


Well Mr. christensen I had a private IM with Wayne Morrison that I am sure will remain private but I am confident he is comfortable with my connection and the reason for my discretion.
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Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2007, 01:36:08 PM »
 ;D One and all, thanks again for all of the insight into Pocantico Hills. There is only one place in the entire www. that I can think of that has the brain-trust in place to wax poetic on an obscure, ultra-private "garden" club that just happens to have quite a pedigree ;)

Thanks again for all of the help!

Tony Petersen
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Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

wsmorrison

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2007, 01:53:25 PM »
Here is an aerial of the grounds containing the golf course.  You can see that there are no fairway lines.

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Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2007, 03:17:12 PM »
Wayne -

That is absolutely amazing... It truly is a golf course routed within the gardens of the estate... Oh, to have found oil in the backwaters of PA back at the turn of the century ;) ;)
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Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

wsmorrison

Re:Pocantico Hills - Impossible Access ???
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2007, 03:46:51 PM »
The double green is the L shaped green at the top right.  Check out how wide the fairway is from the house down to that green (left to right) with the two centerline bunkers.  Talk about width!

The green to the right of the lower lefthand corner pond (with three fronting bunkers) is played uphill from a tee behind the pond.  That has to be one the most beautiful locations for a hole.  It also has more slope on a green anywhere in the world.
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