News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Adam_F_Collins

Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« on: March 11, 2007, 09:48:08 PM »
What are MacKenzie's most well-preserved works? What existing courses are now most like the way they were when originally built?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2007, 10:26:13 PM »
Probably not Augusta!

I'd say Alwoodley is very close, figuring that the added land where the existing 10th green is located was part of his original recommendation.

There's no housing at Alwoodley, and the bunkering has been generally maintained according to the original plan, so I'd have to say Alwoodley.

Anybody who can make it to September's Buda Cup at Alwoodley should work it out to go.  It is a super golf course, little changed from 1907, on very lovely heathland property.  I'm sorry I won't be there to play it again, but the Walker Cup is almost directly opposite in Ireland.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 10:36:33 PM by Bill_McBride »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2007, 10:33:54 PM »
Cypress Point is being brought back. However this is a work in progress.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2007, 10:41:57 PM »
I would think Crystal Downs is pretty close, but Tom Doak and Mike DeVries would be the final word on that since they are members.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 10:50:07 PM »
Reddish Vale? (south of Manchester)

www.rvgc.co.uk

(and they are looking for members!)

Adam Sherer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 10:50:26 PM »
Cypress Point is being brought back. However this is a work in progress.

What are they doing to bring it back?  Are they using outside help or is it all "in-house"?
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 11:06:23 PM »
Reddish Vale? (south of Manchester)

www.rvgc.co.uk

(and they are looking for members!)

Maark Rowlinson may have the last word but much of Reddish Vale is indeed "authentic" MacKenzie.  There have been a few changes on the back nine, it seems numbers 14-16 around the river.  I am not sure, however, that the bunkering has been preserved.  I think it has changed over the years due to their limited budget.

There is another course in the area that might just be a very well preserved MacKenzie and that is Cavendish in the mts east of Manchester.  Again, however, I amnot so sure that the bunkers have been preserved.

The last time I was at Crystal Downs (two years ago) and had a conversation with the pro Fred Mueller, I got the impression that much of the original MacKenzie and Maxwell has been and is being restored.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 11:07:37 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2007, 11:11:31 PM »
In the US, The Meadow Club must be considered.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 11:12:06 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2007, 11:45:28 PM »
England - Alwoodley

USA West Coast - Cypress Point, Pasatiempo and Meadow Club (in that order)

Australia - Royal Melbourne West


One course from his early, thrifty times (Alwoodley).

The other courses drawn on a larger, more dynamic canvas, some 20 years later.

However, my experience is thin, especially in the UK (only 2 Mac's).

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 01:00:29 AM »
Adam, if I'm not mistaken, Valley Club here in the US has been mentioned by Doak as Mackenzie's best preserved course in America.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2007, 09:05:27 AM »
I don't know how much tweaking has been done at Royal Melbourne...

but since Dr Mac was there for such a short time..

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2007, 09:57:45 AM »
Adam:

In my opinion, Crystal Downs and Royal Melbourne (West) are his best-preserved courses, having been tinkered with the least over the years.  Crystal Downs has three back tees which aren't original.

The Valley Club, when we get done rebuilding the greens this summer, will be most like it was when it was originally built.  However, it has taken a fair amount of restoration work to get to that point, and any major restoration is a matter of interpretation, so I understand if others choose to put Crystal Downs and Royal Melbourne ahead of it.

Cypress Point is also trying diligently to restore, and they have not made any major changes over the years.

Alwoodley has not made any major changes, however I am not sure that their treatment of the bunker edges is in keeping with the original state of the course -- I haven't seen many old pictures of it for comparison purposes, but the bunker edges didn't look much like any other MacKenzie course I've seen.  Of course, it was his first, so that might be correct -- High Pointe's bunkers didn't look like most of mine do today, either.

Philippe:  Your point about Royal Melbourne is right on, one could make a good case that it is an Alex Russell/Mick Morcom course with a MacKenzie routing.  But then you could make the same case for Crystal Downs or The Valley Club, too.  Alwoodley, Pasatiempo and Cypress Point are the courses where he spent the most design time, if that's the gist of the question.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2007, 01:08:14 PM »
Tom,

I never saw it, but wasn't there a bunker slap in the middle of the fairway around about 180 yards or so off the tee at CPC's 14th hole. The Club president at the time, Harry Hunt was in it so often that he had it removed. Is this apocryphal or not?

Bob

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2007, 01:32:00 PM »
Bob,

I don't know the story behind who removed the bunker or whether it is apocryphal, but there was a bunker to carry on the 14th originally.  There might have been more room to play to the right of it, though, before the cypress trees grew up on the right.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2007, 02:10:21 PM »
Tom,

I never saw it, but wasn't there a bunker slap in the middle of the fairway around about 180 yards or so off the tee at CPC's 14th hole. The Club president at the time, Harry Hunt was in it so often that he had it removed. Is this apocryphal or not?

Bob
Is this not the way the MacKenzie proposed bunkers be built?  I could swear I read that his advice was to put in the bunkers after a course had been open for a bit by choosing the spot with the most divots.

Jim Bearden

Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2007, 06:31:20 PM »
Tom,

I never saw it, but wasn't there a bunker slap in the middle of the fairway around about 180 yards or so off the tee at CPC's 14th hole. The Club president at the time, Harry Hunt was in it so often that he had it removed. Is this apocryphal or not?

Bob

Bob as usual you are correct. This was told in the history of CP by Roger Lapham, this was availabe only to members and I have my late fathers copy.

In fact I was going to say the same thing and as I understand it one thing done to restore some time ago was to restore the 8th greens upper right shelf. On 4 the center bunkers were restored to two from one. There was also the issue of iceplant on 16 which was limited or not there at all I forget which.

The restoration has been ongoing for years and the best source for how it's being done would be Jim Langley but my bet is in house. The greenskeeper I think his name is Navarro if he is still there, is well qualified degrees etc and he came from Vintage.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2007, 08:33:00 PM »
Tom,

I never saw it, but wasn't there a bunker slap in the middle of the fairway around about 180 yards or so off the tee at CPC's 14th hole. The Club president at the time, Harry Hunt was in it so often that he had it removed. Is this apocryphal or not?

Bob

Bob as usual you are correct. This was told in the history of CP by Roger Lapham, this was availabe only to members and I have my late fathers copy.

In fact I was going to say the same thing and as I understand it one thing done to restore some time ago was to restore the 8th greens upper right shelf. On 4 the center bunkers were restored to two from one. There was also the issue of iceplant on 16 which was limited or not there at all I forget which.

The restoration has been ongoing for years and the best source for how it's being done would be Jim Langley but my bet is in house. The greenskeeper I think his name is Navarro if he is still there, is well qualified degrees etc and he came from Vintage.

If #4 isn't the prettiest parkland par 4 on the planet it is certainly close.  I absolutely love those central bunkers.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 08:39:03 PM by Bill_McBride »

Brian Cenci

Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2007, 09:13:58 PM »
Adam:

In my opinion, Crystal Downs and Royal Melbourne (West) are his best-preserved courses, having been tinkered with the least over the years.  Crystal Downs has three back tees which aren't original.

The Valley Club, when we get done rebuilding the greens this summer, will be most like it was when it was originally built.  However, it has taken a fair amount of restoration work to get to that point, and any major restoration is a matter of interpretation, so I understand if others choose to put Crystal Downs and Royal Melbourne ahead of it.

Cypress Point is also trying diligently to restore, and they have not made any major changes over the years.

Alwoodley has not made any major changes, however I am not sure that their treatment of the bunker edges is in keeping with the original state of the course -- I haven't seen many old pictures of it for comparison purposes, but the bunker edges didn't look much like any other MacKenzie course I've seen.  Of course, it was his first, so that might be correct -- High Pointe's bunkers didn't look like most of mine do today, either.

Philippe:  Your point about Royal Melbourne is right on, one could make a good case that it is an Alex Russell/Mick Morcom course with a MacKenzie routing.  But then you could make the same case for Crystal Downs or The Valley Club, too.  Alwoodley, Pasatiempo and Cypress Point are the courses where he spent the most design time, if that's the gist of the question.

Tom,
     What are the 3 non-original back tees?  #3, #6 and #13 (the new one way back) and #18?

-Brian

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2007, 09:49:02 PM »
I know #18 is, not sure about the others at CD.

RT

Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2007, 05:14:29 AM »
There are places on Moortown that have the hand of him, where he looks like he started to develop a certain flair after the rough and rugged Alwoodley bunker style Tom mentions.


Here is the 1st hole right hand second-ish landing area





And just in front of the green


Andrew Mitchell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2007, 12:19:06 PM »
Hopefully the favourable references on this thread to Alwoodley and Moortown will encourage people to register their interest for the Buda Cup event to be played over these courses in September.
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2007, 01:48:52 PM »
Adam:

In my opinion, Crystal Downs and Royal Melbourne (West) are his best-preserved courses, having been tinkered with the least over the years.  Crystal Downs has three back tees which aren't original.

The Valley Club, when we get done rebuilding the greens this summer, will be most like it was when it was originally built.  However, it has taken a fair amount of restoration work to get to that point, and any major restoration is a matter of interpretation, so I understand if others choose to put Crystal Downs and Royal Melbourne ahead of it.

Cypress Point is also trying diligently to restore, and they have not made any major changes over the years.

Alwoodley has not made any major changes, however I am not sure that their treatment of the bunker edges is in keeping with the original state of the course -- I haven't seen many old pictures of it for comparison purposes, but the bunker edges didn't look much like any other MacKenzie course I've seen.  Of course, it was his first, so that might be correct -- High Pointe's bunkers didn't look like most of mine do today, either.

Philippe:  Your point about Royal Melbourne is right on, one could make a good case that it is an Alex Russell/Mick Morcom course with a MacKenzie routing.  But then you could make the same case for Crystal Downs or The Valley Club, too.  Alwoodley, Pasatiempo and Cypress Point are the courses where he spent the most design time, if that's the gist of the question.

Tom,
     What are the 3 non-original back tees?  #3, #6 and #13 (the new one way back) and #18?

-Brian

Brian,

You are correct on the four you mentioned, although in re-surfacing of some of the other tees, they may have added a bit of space at the back portion of a tee.  Fred and I disagree about the tee on #6 -- he thinks it is original but I don't -- maybe someday a print will show up and clarify it.

I would agree with Tom's assessments above, although I have not been to Australia and cannot comment on any of the courses there.  

Meadow Club's greens and bunkers are faithful to their original configurations, with the exception of #3, which had been altered by the membership decades ago and we rebuilt it entirely, but without any good pictures or sketches of the original, but through anecdotal info from older members, what little pictorial info we had, and what was on the ground.  Of course, the most obvious difference in the original Meadow and today's is the addition of trees over the last 40 years to change it from a meadow to numerous tree-lined corridors (not continuously) but we are working to restore all the angles of play and beautiful vistas that the course possesses.

Best,

Mike

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2007, 09:06:35 AM »
No, the bunkers at Alwoodley are not as originally built.  Many were raised up in hummocks above the level of the putting surface and facing the green, rather like those behind the 12th green at Augusta National, except that Alwoodley's were wild and unkempt.  Downhill escapes were required.  I don't know when they were converted to more standard bunkers.  What I do know is that they were not regularly raked until after the 1st World War (once a week!).  The roll-over tops were introduced some years ago in an attempt to provide difficulties of escape similar to steep sand faces which could no longer be maintained cost-effectively.  There have been recent changes, too, but I shall not comment - they may not remain when the BUDA Cup visits.  

We do not have a definitive course plan of MacKenzie's original.  There is a MacKenzie sketch map made in about 1910 which shows work in progress (including the proposed new 10th green and 11th hole) and it is not possible to deduce exactly what the finished course may have had in the way of bunkering, but changes continued to be made even into the 1920s (bunkering on the short 7th, for instance).  There are a number of photos of the 7th from the very earliest days up until the Second World War, and it seems that the bunkering was substantially different (in number, location and style) in each photo.  There is also a 1910 map by HA Chapman, or, rather, two very similar 1910 maps by him - there are detail differences.  Even if Alwoodley wished to do it there is no way they could restore the course to its original, as we don't know what the original was.  For that matter, I suggest that there was no original - it seems to have developed over a number of years, MacKenzie tinkering as he went along.  The routing, however, has not changed apart from the construction of a new 10th green (suggested by MacKenzie) and the relocation of the 6th green (in Mack's time).  We simply could not work out whether the 11th has also been relocated.  Permission was given to rebuild it in a different place, and MacKenzie has suggested it if ever the land for its tee became available (which it did after MacK was no longer welcome at the club).  But there is no record to say that it was done and the bunkering is in the same place as it was on the earliest photographs.  However, Chapman's and MacKenzie's maps suggest that it was originally located in a different position in relationship to the 12th tee (still in the same place).....   But how accurate were their maps?  

Otherwise Alwoodley is pretty intact, the routing and strategy in particular.  

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2007, 11:56:19 AM »
Has anybody ever played Duff House Royal, a MacKenzie course in Banff, Scotland?

www.theduffhouseroyalgolfclub.co.uk

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alister MacKenzie's Most Preserved
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2007, 03:06:32 PM »
I will now add a vote for Valley Club of Montecito.  What joy it is!

I understand that some greens restoration work is planned for this summer.  Temporary bent greens have been prepared so it certainly appars to be a thorough proposal.

But then, we shouldn't have expected any less.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)