[mike_beene]

Maybe we are focusing on the wrong thing.What would happen if 40 degrees was the most lofted club allowed?(that will soon be sand wedge loft anyway)

[Phil_the_Author]

The Squire would begin turning over in his grave.

[Kyle Harris]

The Squire would begin turning over in his grave.

The Squire regretted inventing the sand wedge almost the minute he did it.

[A.G._Crockett]

I believe Tiger advocated a version of this last year.  His number was nothing over 56 degrees.

[Tommy Williamsen]

i am one who carries four wedges.  For me at 60 those clubs are the great equalizers.  Ban the 325 yard drive!

[RSLivingston_III]

Just to be technically accurate, Sarazan didn't invent the Sand Wedge he popularized it. Hagen had the first in 1928.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Walter Hagen Sand Wedge:
"Patented in 1928, this sand wedge features a wide sole (for ease in getting the ball airborne) and a concave face! Bobby Jones used one of these when he won the 1930 Open Championship at Liverpool. Mark my words – I give it less than a year before you see an infomercial touting the merits of a concave-face sand wedge – you heard it here first!"
 


Did a little research for fun.  I did not know about Hagen and the sand wedge.

[RSLivingston_III]

Walter Hagen Sand Wedge:
"Patented in 1928, this sand wedge features a wide sole (for ease in getting the ball airborne) and a concave face! Bobby Jones used one of these when he won the 1930 Open Championship at Liverpool. Mark my words – I give it less than a year before you see an infomercial touting the merits of a concave-face sand wedge – you heard it here first!"
 


Did a little research for fun.  I did not know about Hagen and the sand wedge.

Club collectors all know about this because it is one of the most collectable clubs out there.
It is interesting to hit with it too. You use it the way people use them today, with the face square and not open. You don't splash, you throw the ball out with a small handful cushion of sand.

[David_Madison]

Why do anything that makes the game harder for the 99.75% of all players who can't hit a 300 yard drive or suck back a shot from 6" rough to a rock hard green sloping away from them? When average players start shooting lower scores, with equipment responsible for those lower scores, then maybe do something. But that's not happening. We've been through this thing a zillion times before - - taylor some rules for tournament players but leave things alone or even continue to make them easier and hopefully more enjoyable for everyone else who actually pay the bills.

[A.G._Crockett]

Why do anything that makes the game harder for the 99.75% of all players who can't hit a 300 yard drive or suck back a shot from 6" rough to a rock hard green sloping away from them? When average players start shooting lower scores, with equipment responsible for those lower scores, then maybe do something. But that's not happening. We've been through this thing a zillion times before - - taylor some rules for tournament players but leave things alone or even continue to make them easier and hopefully more enjoyable for everyone else who actually pay the bills.

I don't really advocate the cap of lofts, but I'm not sure that limiting wedges at 56 degrees would really hurt lesser players very much.  58 and 60 degree wedges are "players' clubs" in my mind, and high handicappers just aren't capable of playing them effectively.  In that regard, if a loft limit were imposed, it would hurt golf a lot less than ball and/or driver restrictions.

[Rick Shefchik]

The ball's the thing.

Remember, TEPaul says the USGA is really serious about getting ball manufacturers to produce a rolled-back ball.

If he doesn't know, who would?

[Guy Phelan]

Any change to equipment should and will be centered around the ball...the ball needs to be seriously addressed...we need somoene like CBM to come back and take a stance.

[mike_beene]

It is difficult to get the toothpaste back in the tube.I am not sure limiting loft is the answer,but if we shaved the rough around the greens think of the shots we would use,and the bunkers would become hazards,and smash and find it would be a real gamble with anything inside 150 requiring less than a full shot.Most higher handicappers would do better using the ground game.Besides,poor short game players tend to add 8 degrees at impact when they hit pitch shots.Anyone know what kind of loft the Jones era used out of bunkers?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I do not understand why anyone would want to regulate the loft of the wedge.  To use a 60 degree wedge takes some skill and practice.  Let's encourage players to work on their short games.  Instead of regulate the loft of a wedge why not limit the length of a putter?

[mike_beene]

Tommy,now you have gone from preaching to meddling...I would love to see the long and especially belly putter gone.I am fine with the game now,but the 60 takes a lot of short side stress away.The only reason we are discussing this is that the ball has gotten out of control.Being honest,I enjoy being 25 yards longer at 46 than at 36 and bifurcated rules have no interest to me.Ego is a funny thing.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mike, unfortunately, pastors are good at both preaching and meddling.  Nonetheless, I wonder if those advocating a limit on the loft of the wedge have had much success with a 60 degree wedge.  How many of you who want to deloft the wedge carry a 60 degree?

[Doug Siebert]

I'm not sure if it would really accomplish anything, but I wouldn't have a problem with banning the 60* wedge, and I consider myself quite proficient with it.  The lob wedge, greenside bunker play and raw distance are the only things that I consider myself to do significantly better than the typical player with my 5-6 handicap.
 
I don't really see how it would affect me, if they limited wedges to a 56* loft, I'd open the face on a 56* wedge for the same results I get today with a 60*.  Sure, some of the really crazy high Mickelson type shots I do once in a while with a wide open 60* wedge might not quite be possible using the 56* in that way, but to be honest sometimes I do those things more to show off than because its really a smart play score-wise, so maybe banning the 60* wedge would be a good thing

Now if you banned clubs down to 41* as was originally suggested in this thread, that's a whole different matter.  Then you have players who have the same club for 175 yards and in, and distance control by feel instead of a mechanical system like Pelz becomes much more important.  That's fine with me, as I'm a feel player, but undoubtedly its going to be hard to get much spin hitting a half shot with the equivalent of an 8 iron from 100 yards.  And golfers who today might lay back to 100 yards or whatever their "favorite" distance is for a full shot probably aren't going to lay back to the 150-175 range a 41* club would require!

A 100 yard shot from heavy rough would be an adventure, since you can't play a half shot like that, the club might not ever make it to the ball, but if you hit it full on a flyer could send the ball 100 yards over the green!  That would be where things really get interesting, and separate the true shotmakers from the guys who just lean on their club's loft to do the work for them.

[Brent Hutto]

Now I freeely admit that starting around 15 degrees is a ploy to limit distance...

...with the side effect of shaving a couple strokes off the games of a bunch of middle-aged double-digit handicappers out there hitting 10.5-degree drivers with an over-the-top 90mph (at best) swing. Legislating a 15-degree minimum loft would result in those guys carrying the ball five yards farther and ten yards straighter.

BTW, I don't agree with your modest proposal. Just pointing out that it would actually be somewhat of an equalizer between long-and-strong vs. short-and-weak hitters.

[wsmorrison]

Define skill and make sure it remains a primary determinant in the sport.  Skill should be evidenced and rewarded in tournament golf.

[jeffwarne]

Reducing the # of clubs as Sean suggests would create more "shotmaking". In fact allowing the players to only carry one club would produce the ultimate in shotmaking.

However, this isn't the fundamental problem that plagues the modern game.
High tech oversized, lightweight drivers and an out of control ball are the creaters of the increased distance all players ,and especially the tour level players acheive today.
Is it a better game if Bubba Watson drives it 370 and then pitches with a 40 degree club rather than 60 degree club?

Fix the fundamental problem causing the game to get so big,time consuming, and expensive-distance.
If Major League baseball with all its' problems can legislate a bat and ball, you'd think the much more civilized by comparison PGA tour could.

Fix the ball and space age equipment and the players might think twice about giving up their 2 ,3, and 4 irons.to carry 6 wedges.

If you made the max loft 56 degrees,skilled players would simply get wedges without bounce that they could open up effectively to 60-70 degrees,and carry another 56 degree wedge with bounce for bunker shots and ordinary pitching.

I'm not sure I'm ready for a game with 400 yard drives and 4 clubs.

[Ken Moum]

Change the ball. This wedge and other stuff is nonsense.  

e.g. - Make it curve more, i.e. - harder to go straight.  Make it spin a ton, a minimum spin rate. That will make it easier for the hack to get it airborne, but a foozle remains a foozle.

It can be done! (My god, we humans can change the planet's climate fer chrissake!!!)

The ball companies ought to be thrilled at the prospect of selling all those new balls. Especially the ones that curve (and get lost) more.

All you need to do to accomplish that is reduce the maximum weight.

Gutties were much lighter than later balls

Even after the Haskell ball was developed the USGA increased the minimum size of ball from 1.62" to 1.68' while simultaneously dropping the weight from 1.62 ounces to 1.55 ounces.

This only lasted one year as the "Balloon Ball" was reviled for being hard to control in the wind.

But today's balls are straighter, much straighter.

I say go back to 1.55!!

It's time to reskill the game.

FWIW, a light ball might actually help women, seniors, juniors and beginners because it would be easier to get in the air, and sit up a bit better.

K

[Tony Ristola]

40 degrees would be too little loft. how about 50. 54 to 60 is SW, LW loft.

Quote:
"Remember, TEPaul says the USGA is really serious about getting ball manufacturers to produce a rolled-back ball."

This is something I don't understand. Manufacturers don't have the right to monopoly or strong market status. Featherie makers went out of business or changed with the times and perhaps gained, perhaps lost business. The big manufacturers will lose business with a restricted ball, but that's life...Tough darts.

Why these folks at USGA and R&A HQ are asking for anything is nuts? They should be demanding. We know the ball flies way too far, and we know what the game looked like 25 years ago. People still hit long irons and even fairway woods into long par-4's.  Warren Buffett is right when he claimed we have no giants today, only obedient ants. These folks at the coastal HQ's set the rules, the game is out of wack...ACT! It is in your purvue, your domain...it is your duty. If the manufacturers sue, then go to court and counter sue for the trouble and cost to defend the game.

PS. They rolled the ball back in 1978 in all countries except the US and Canada (elimination of the 1.62 ball), they can adjust again.

[Ken Moum]

PS. They rolled the ball back in 1978 in all countries except the US and Canada (elimination of the 1.62 ball), they can adjust again.

They also rolled it back in the U.S. in 1931 going from the 1.62 - 1.62 ball to one that was 1.68 - 1.55.

The next year, the USGA changed the max weight back to 1.62 ounces, but left the diameter at 1.68".

Personally, I believe that going back to 1.55 ounces would solve most of the problems I have with top-level golf, and might actually help the shortest hitters a bit.

K

[Geoffrey Childs]

The rule could not be enforced.

Lofts and lies change all the time.  Practice on mats for a while and see what happens.

I just went in to get my 54-12 bent to a 52-10 to get a better gap between my PW and 58* and lo and behold it was 56*.  It was measured the year before so it changed with play and practice.  

Should we have our wedges measured on the first tee?

[Tony Ristola]

If they can test spring-like-effect, a loft test gadget is cave man technology.

Don't need a loft and lie machine. That's the player's problem. If the club doesn't conform...get it fixed or...tough luck. The test could be for 50 degrees but allow 51.  The test would be on the first tee, and could be random. I doubt guys would risk going into a round with non-conforming equipment.

I think a 10 club set would solve this problem and create more shot making across the board. If a guy wanted three wedges and then had huge gaps elsewhere...OK, his choice.

I know Lanny Wadkins set the standard long before the trailer wars happend on tour...checking his lies and lofts daily. A good toss can change lofts or lies quick. Watching the guys with the mallets at the PING factory is a hoot. A whack, followed by another...check the loft and lie...perfecto!...now paint the dot. The guys have great touch.

A lighter ball would be interesting, especially in the wind.

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