[Mark Bourgeois]

I would like to hear what's being built or planned on Florida's watershed, the Lake Wales Ridge. Forgive me, I'm no geologist, but I've always thought this special geological feature offers the kind of land that could produce great golf courses. (Unlike the land off the Ridge; i.e., the rest of Peninsular Florida.)

Apologia Ignoramus[/b]
Early last year, there was a thread on Davis Love and Paul Cowley's course at Ocala.  Technically, I don't think Ocala falls on the Ridge; it's too far north.

In that thread, Mike Sweeney and others mentioned the Lake Wales Ridge, and referenced a figure that it was 85 percent cleared for development.  Here's the link to that thread: http://tinyurl.com/2rygtd

I was very surprised to read the 85 percent figure. I could see development maybe near and on the edges of the Ridge, but I've always understood the Ridge itself to be pure sand, at least where the oranges are -- or have I been done in again by my limited knowledge of geology? (I'd always thought the sand on the Ridge proper went down as much as 20-30 feet.)  Of course, another flaw in my reasoning could be thinking one can't build a house on 20 feet of sand layered over porous limestone, with maybe nothing to stop your house but the Floridan Aquifer, but thinking about development in coastal Florida, how silly of me to think that!

The Ridge as I understand it runs north-south from Leesburg down to Sebring for about 100 miles, and basically is a relic dune ranging in width from about a mile up to 25 miles. In geologic history it has been underwater, and later coastline. I think the sands were deposited (on the coral reef) during the Pleistocene Era, and then as the seas retreated were formed into dunes.

Here's a map showing the Ridge -- it's the long, thin one down the center: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/guerry/GLY4155/sp35/fig17.gif

Here's a Softmud report that has a few graphics on the lower end of the Ridge: http://tinyurl.com/35jtxw

It gets nearly 300 feet above sea level in places, but most of it isn't all that distinguished as far as height goes. To be honest, if you weren't paying close attention, you might not even realize you were on it.  But: it is pure sand! I wouldn't even call it "sandy soil;" if you walk it, you actually can sink up to it in your knees in places.

That's why I kinda wonder about the 85 percent figure. I always thought of the Ridge as intrinsically a big sand pile, but maybe I'm defining it too narrowly.  Making development even harder, I thought the geology below the sand was Karst. Again, dunno. I do know that where left undeveloped for man's use, the Ridge presents a very special, unique, and, because this is Florida, vanishing ecosystem.

Anyway, relic dunes: that's a key element of many great golf courses, yes?

Now, the Ridge is the orange-growing region of Florida; I read somewhere that the production of these groves is higher than Spain and Italy combined. So, from an agricultural perspective the Ridge is very valuable land indeed.

But my thinking was that as development encroached from the two coasts (plus Brazil and freezes -- freezes have played a significant role in SW Florida development E of I-75), the growers would sell out and in would go golf courses.  Because of the geology, development courses would be problematic. (On the other hand, never underestimate the power of Florida real-estate developers to bend the laws of nature, physics, and man to their will...)

There's another ridge running down the northwest part of peninsular Florida called (I think) the Brooksville Ridge, and I think World Woods got built on it; when that happened I figured it was only a matter of time for the Ridge to be discovered.

Sure enough: Southern Dunes.  I could be wrong but I think Mountain Lake was built on the Ridge proper; Lake Wales GC may or may not be on it.

I have been out of Florida for a while now and was wondering whether anyone could provide an update.  What is everybody seeing down there? Are the orange groves on the Ridge proper being acquired and the land being used to its "great course" potential? Have the economics shifted to favor converting Ridge orange groves into golf courses? (I already know about non-Ridge agricultural land in Central Florida...) Who, what, when, where?

Those who know more than me: have you walked any groves on the Ridge, sank up to your knees in sand, and seen the possibilities?

Thanks,
Mark

[Kyle Harris]

Mark,

There is PLENTY of good golf terrain on the ridge. Yes, Mountain Lake, Southern Dunes, Lake Wales CC, and Lekarica (Stiles and Van Kleek) are all on the ridge.

Furthermore, a geologic extension of the ridge is currently having a C&C course built upon it in Clermont.

On my way to work, there's great terrain just north of Mountain Lake in Waverly. Mountain Lake also outsources the orange groves the corporation owns to Florida's Natural, which is based on Lake Wales. The coporation owns the land to prevent development around the park.

Coincidentally, Bok Tower sits on the highest point of the ridge.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Kyle,

Thanks. Are all of those courses right on the Ridge, or are they off to the side? I haven't looked at a topo map of Central Florida in more than a decade; I was fairly confident of Southern Dunes but less sure of the Lake Wales-area courses. While Lake Wales definitely is hilly, Karst-type topography, I don't believe it actually sits on the Ridge.   From my drives through the area, I seem to recall the Ridge running to the east of Lake Wales.  Also, I'm pretty sure it runs to the east of Frostproof (Ben Hill Griffin country).

Have I described the Ridge properly? Have I overstated the potential of the land for greatness -- does it have that potential, or just for good courses?  And are they actually building houses on the Ridge proper? I would have thought the groves had remained on that land, with the development springing up on either side.  That's the way I recall it along Rt. 60...

I definitely do remember the sand in those groves though...even trucks got stuck in it sometimes.

Is it good sand for golf?

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

PS I'm very much looking forward to this discussion insofar as it brings back happy memories of when I was your age and down there!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mountain Lake is right on the ridge. It is less than a half mile from Bok Tower which sits on the crest/high point for the entire ridge. I also feel there is a lot of great golf still to be built along the ridge. However the housing component makes quality of life with the course an issue.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Just continuing with the field work on siting the Carthage Club...

Actually posting again out of hope someone smarter in the ways of geology, golf, and / or development will prove my stupid, unimportant, Friday-afternoon contention wrong: the Ridge is nearly golf-free, the “soil”(the Ridge proper has no soil, just deep sand) and terrain could produce great golf course architecture, and that those courses likely won’t be development courses.

Additionally, the Ridge is global-warming proof, at least by the projections in this week’s Sports Illustrated.  So we got that going for us, which is nice.

I called a UF geologist and consulted a highly-respected and successful real estate developer (uh, close relative).

What I’ve learned:

The “85 percent developed” figure comes from an environmental organization and includes agricultural use.  The Ridge is still orange groves. Given the value of the land to orange production, I’m surprised it’s not 100 percent!

The Ridge is composed indeed of Pleistocene-Era sand deposits stretching 20-30 feet downwards, and sits on top of Karst-type geology.  If you want to build structure on it, you’ll have to either drive piles down to limestone or “float” it on a slab.  (Both can be done…expensive.)

Generally, the development in the area of the Ridge is either off to the side (Sebring, Lake Wales) or on Karst-type land sited in an “interruption” of the Ridge (Haines City).  A practical implication of this is that you drive all around the Ridge, and never really "experience" it, unless you’re driving between rows of orange trees!

In looking at golf courses sited in the vicinity of the Ridge, Mountain Lake and Southern Dunes appear closest.  But my reading of the topo map puts ML actually on the “shoulder” of the Ridge; a number of holes appear off it.  Perhaps those more familiar can tell us whether the course is sited on a sand dune or firmer ground.

(Bok Tower nearby is on the Ridge, but given that it is sited on Iron Mountain, this could be an intrusion, suspect terrane, etc.  In other words, not technically the Ridge!)

As to Southern Dunes, the heavy development around it makes me wonder whether that in fact is Ridge.  Its proximity to Tower Lake may indicate a different geology.

Interestingly, a number of courses are off to the side of the Ridge.  I think this is because the economics of non-development courses on the Ridge don’t / haven’t worked: no one would “waste” incredibly valuable agricultural land this way!

If Mountain Lake is on one side, Lake Wales is on the other!  In fact, many if not all the courses look to be off to a side or in an interruption that look to be off to a side: Greenlefe, Ridgewood Lakes, Mystic Dunes (looks like shoulder land: scrub), Howey in the Hills(?).  This cannot be an accident, it must be due to the value of the land agriculturally combined with the relative lack of development value.

Highland Reserve looks like it might be on it or right on the edge.  I tried calling the pro shop, but no answer.  But look at these pictures and the discussion! http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=16587

What about King’s Ridge?

Kyle, I very much would like to know more about Lekarica.  Now, it is near a lake, which suggests Karst and not Ridge.  Additionally, it’s on the north side.  Both of these would suggest land of lower value to agriculture.  (South side of lakes offers better protection against freezes – thus “Frostproof”!)  But the orange groves appear to run right down to the edge of the courses, so maybe it’s on the Ridge…FWIW, its website does mention it as being on the Ridge, and as being “uncrowded by houses.”

I am going to try to post some topos from Ridge territory, and maybe some of you can say whether this sand is Carthage country!

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Here are two topos -- sorry for the quality, they're pics of topos.

The long-time owner of this land did so well by it his name is on UF's stadium:


Here's a link to an aerial -- this is what orange trees plopped in deep sand look like from space! http://tinyurl.com/3xuh6x

Here's another:


Mark

[Mike Sweeney]

Mark,

There is PLENTY of good golf terrain on the ridge. Yes, Mountain Lake, Southern Dunes, Lake Wales CC, and Lekarica (Stiles and Van Kleek) are all on the ridge.

Mark,

With the enouragement of Kyle, I went down to Lakarica yesterday. It is about 5 miles south of Mountain Lake and it is a cautionary tale. I did not play but talked to a gentleman in the clubhouse for a while.  It was originally built in 1927, two year before the market crash, as Highland Park. It appears that it was going to be the second Mountain Lake of the area, but the market crash appears to have kept it from ever getting above water. It has a big building near the entrance that appears to have been its Colony House. At one point it was an Inn, but now it is not clear what it is now. It also has some very attractive homes sitting around a lake. However those homes are now sitting next to some of the not so classic homes that you see in the area.

The course looks like it has some good bones with 100 feet of elevation change, but I could only see a few holes and the bunkering was clearly not original. At $27 including cart, it is cheap even in Florida, so it might be worth an end of the day 9 holer after Mountain Lake, but clearly is not worth a trip to see unless you are on a Stiles and VanKleek expedition.

Having driven by the monsterous probably 30,000 foot clubhouse of Bella Collina near Sugarloaf this week, it will be interesting to see what happens there as no homes have been built.

To answer your original question, I don't see the demographics of the area being able to attract our definition of great golf. Mountain Lake got in early enough before th '29 crash, but that is probably as close as the area will come to greatness. Route 27 is dominated by lower end housing.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Great fieldwork, Mike.

100 feet of elevation change!

Also, I looked on Google Aerial and Googled this course but couldn't find it; this isn't "Highland Hills," is it?

I thought maybe our "demographics" would be a moveable feast.  As in, not really local.

Couple more points:
1) It got built not so much before the Crash but after the crash: the Florida Land Boom, a massive bubble, died in 1925-26.  That probably had something to do with its problems. (and yes, the stock market crash would not have helped, either!)
2) Looking at the google aerial, some of these courses seem to have lakes around them.  This is not the Ridge!  Also, Highland Hills is on the north side of a lake.  From an agricultural perspective Karst + north side of lake = minimal / less worth.
3) Looking at the google aerial, it is damned depressing to see so much of this area housed -- I mean, streets and pods presumably set up for future housing.

So maybe there's good news in #3, but all the land being leveled for these blights...

Mark

[John Mayhugh]

Having driven by the monsterous probably 30,000 foot clubhouse of Bella Collina near Sugarloaf this week, it will be interesting to see what happens there as no homes have been built.

I played Sugarloaf on Sunday.  I didn't remember reading anything about Bella Collina before, so I'm glad to see this post.  We were wondering what sort of hotel was going in there with the golf course....that clubhouse is massive.

Regarding Lekarica, how far would you drive to play it?

[Kyle Harris]

Hang on Mark. I got some pics since we started this thread a few years ago. Let me dig.

[Kyle Harris]

Here's the 12th green at Lekarica - looking southeast. It's the highest point on the property:



9th Tee:



John,

Play Lekarica only if you're in the neighborhood for Southern Dunes or Mountain Lake. It's probably worth a day down from Clermont too. Definitely play all 18 though, as the real good holes are from 5-16. 2 would be an awesome cape hole if the trees were cleared.

[Jim_Kennedy]

A fun day of Flynn and VK is Cleaveland Heights in the morning and Lekarica in the afternoon.  There only 30 miles from each other, tops, and 60 miles or so from Orlando proper.

I enjoyed them both, and have played them several times. I like the quiet and unhurried nature of Lekarica, but I guess you'd have to be on an extended vacation to take the time to see it.

The golf is good at either place.

[Mark Bourgeois]

It's a shame to see all that elevation change neutered.

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