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wsmorrison

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2007, 02:23:54 PM »
Tom,

I think one of the significant reasons the 14th green was moved by Ross and McGovern was to lengthen the 15th hole.  I can't say with certainty, but I think the new tees they designed and built are an improvement.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2007, 02:49:20 PM »
 8)
Looks like 27 holes there at HV.. i assume main 18 are on west side of property?



I note from topo that Central valley creek runs east-east- north through property, draining valley at 175-200 ft MSL elevation in s-eastern corner.. 350 on north and 300 ft on south seems to be ridge line on flanks of e-W valley with main falls across fairways ~ 50 feet or so ,.  very interesting
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 02:50:49 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2007, 10:56:48 PM »
Jeff,

For whatever it's worth I agree with almost everything you have been saying and I think Tommy is a little clueless.  But, one point you made about the relative size of catch basins compared to sprinkler heads did not make sense to me.

Granted, the sprinkler head and catch basin are simlar in size, I would argue that given the "bowled nature" of the catch basin as opposed to the level nature of a sprinkler head, it is much more likely to have a ball settle in or next to a CB than a sprinkler head.  A minor nitpick but...

Tommy,

Having recently gone through a renovation on a Georgia course that lacked good drainage to begin with, I can assure you, as an owner, drainage, drainage and more drainage has already been worth every penny I could spend.  We may have 4 or 5 catch basins but they have made an enormous impact on the playability of the course after big rains.  For the previous 33 years we desperately played catch up installing french drains and re-building bunkers constantly because the course did not drain well.  The original routing was by Joe Lee.  Relatively unhearalded, Mr. Lee was without a doubt a true professional and I certainly don't think his design was any "malpractice" per se; back then we just couldn't afford the drainage we needed.

Also, as an armchair critic, it is impossible to really know or appreciate how good modern architects really are.  I still have limited "experience" watching and discussing course construction but the notion that the old dead guys were smarter, better or just gave more of a damn is pretty insulting to a very professional group of modern architects.  I know on our project Mchael Riley did everything possible to avoid any catch basins much less one in an "in play" area.

However, every thing that was done, where a cartpath is routed, where a tee can go, how we bank or slope a green, fairway bunker or whatever was all done after careful consideration of the effect on drainage and flow.  For fun, Mike would ask what I would do here or there and after about a dozen dumbass remarks that showed I still wasn't paying attention to what the water would do, I finally caught on.  Repel the water away from greens, tees and bunkers, catch any water you can before it gets on the course and when you have no choice but to let water gather, install the best possible drainage you can afford.

Also, as Mike Young suggests in this and other threads, no one unless they are on site everyday can have a clue as to the restrictions and challenges faced on a given project.  At Mike Young's Heritage golf course in Atlanta, according to him, he installed 500 catch basins and over $1.2MM in drainage alone thank to the ridiculous requirements of the city he was working with.  Is Mike not as talented because he "overused" catch basins???  Did Mike not have his "heart and soul" in the project like the dead guys???

Last point on the Engh pictures--I went last summer with two (unnamed) superintendants  and some other friends in the construction business.  Let's just say we all placed bets on how the greens in some of the bowled locations would do.  It was during grow-in and during a VERY dry time and it was very noticible that on a couple of the greens the seed and mix had really been washed away badly.  We asked if it had rained recently since we knew how dry it had been in Atlanta.  It wasn't rain but the irrigation water from the sprinkler heads that was washing away the greens during grow in!!!!  I am sure the budget will be immense to fly mow the bunkers and mow those greens, but I can assure you, the lack of drainage to catch water prior to washing out the greens has already cost that course some money.    

If you still will talk to me, I'll bet you any barbecue you want that drainage will be added around several of those greens in the next 18 months! :)



 

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #78 on: March 10, 2007, 02:32:09 AM »
Chris,
Once again, your going to have to go back and read further into my posts. I'm not advocating the non-use of drainage, I'm just calling the excessive use of it, as more of a means that the golf hole doesn't fit the land it was intended to fit in--the very sense of what classic architecture is all about. (from the dead guys)

Also, while it maybe your opinion that I'm clueless, I have seen sites where drainage was need, lots of it. I've seen sites where little was needed--like in the Coachella Valley where the golf course is littered with it. These are observations, but if I'm noticing them, then I place myself in a different category then most golfers who don't care or give a damn about it!

If that's being clueless, well then you owe me that BBQ! (Hope to be back there soon.)

Oh, and the Reynold's course which we are talking about maybe one of the worst golf courses I've ever seen in another state, and I only saw about two and a half holes of it! None of it looked any different, in fact, I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but those images I posted are of two different golf holes, back to back.

Don't get me wrong, I think Jim Engh is a very nice man, but I'm having a difficult time trying to find something positive from what I saw.

Your comments on these holes also prove my point, I think. Wouldn't you say that the course is a victim of a bad routing? (bad green placement, costly and almost unmaintainable bunkering and slopes around them.)

Nothing a Best New Private can't fix though! ;)

« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 02:34:03 AM by Tommy Naccarato »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #79 on: March 10, 2007, 04:07:02 AM »
Tommy,

Golf is a popular game, going strong since the 1500's.  Yes they survived, but they added drainage every single year to make their courses better.  Standards are simply higher today than they were back then, based on earlier generations basic dissatisfaction with (or longing for better) maintenance conditions.  

Jeff, your driving me to post in Mucci Blue this time!

First off, Golf is not a Game. It is a Sport by definition. Max Behr has proven that. (By the way, one of the the earliest recorded dates of Golf on record is 1353.) As Maxwell Smart used to say, Missed it by that much! (a century and a half)

Second, I agree standards are higher and that impeccable conditioning a major mindset in terms of playing the sport for the status quo. But I do have to ask, do you actually think they were building catch basins in 1500? ;) What time frame are you talking about?

Third, and this is a question:

I submit that had they done nothing to improve drainage of those early courses, golf would not have prospered as much.


This statement is pure speculation on your part, IF your talking about the Golden Age. Yet, many links courses wouldn't have been able to survive according to your opinion. If so, where are the catch basins hiding at St. Andrews? Carnoustie? North Berwick?  

I'm not saying these courses don't have added drainage, but more relying  on sandy, compacted links land and if they do, I didn't see much of catch basin variety. How much rain does Fife get per year? Is there a badly placed green at the Old Course?


Today, fewer members will join a course that "will have good turf someday" because they want it perfect now and because its possible.  And public courses just can't stand the lost revenue as much as they did because costs everywhere keep getting squeezed, there are investors to please, etc.

I've been maintaining this to you all along. But what kind of players do you think your going to attract at $125.00 a round? How many beginners?

All of that factors into how we approach design.

No, it's how YOU approach design. You still haven't explained how Coore & Crenshaw, Hanse, Doak, DeVries, etc. (my boys) are capable of hiding drainage where it doesn't affect the architecture. They do it and the course looks timeless because of it.

You still haven't explained how Gil Hanse and Tom Doak hide their drainage swales. You also seem to have either turned the other cheek or conviently forgot anything Mike DeVries has done, and for some unknown reason you don't want to talk about routing, or better yet, how all of this is affected by routing. BAD routing.

This is my entire point. Oh, and you can put "taste" in there also. But this isn't a bad thing. It's just YOUR way of doing things.


As to Fazio singlehandedly killing the golf biz, he has designed just a few % of the courses out there today.

Once againg Jeff, putting words in that I didn't type. I didn't say Fazio was single handily killing the golf business, but he isn't helping it. To deny this would be pure hyperbole on your part. For example, the statement in the current Golfweek, what do you make of it: (true or false?)

Quote
I would submit that the criticism that I don't build 'strategic' courses comes from my competitors, and the media picks up on it...

Sounds like he doesn't care for you guys too much. It's also my opinion, that this attitude is why Riviera looks like dog shit.

If you want to respect Tom Fazio for rasing the bar for your craft, then go ahead, feel free. Personally, I think you represent to him someone in the way from him controlling the world. (of golf courses)


I doubt its happened and also wonder if CBMac faced the same critiques 100 years ago with his outrageous spending?  

He did, In fact he was more or less excommunicated from the club, I have some paper work around here somehere, explaining the pre-opening of the club itsef but show me one small catch basin with a drain on/in/or near a fairway at NGLA. I'm not talking about the pits which are out of play, where Raynor got a lot of his material to build the course.

High and Low end courses have always been with us, and the low and moderate end are a higher % of courses now than they were in the Golden Age, so holding them up as an example of affordable golf is not quite accurate.

How many more people are they servicing in each particular area where these courses exist?

And once again, golf is not in distress because there is too much drainage, golf is in distress because there are too many golf courses for the players that use them.

Once again, pure hyperbole on your part. Golf is in distress because there is no new blood, with character coming to play; the PGA Tour is boring when Tiger Woods is not playing and frankly, it's all like the dance of the living dead when it's on TV. The youth of America, the ones that are supposed to be carrying on the passion and the traditions and ettiquite of the Sport are either playing video games or surfing the internet. As your colleagues pointed out in the ASGCA Conference at the GIS, the target golfer is now the baby boomer who will be retiring and can afford one or two club memberships.

Kids also don't have the money to play either because their parents cannot afford putting $3.00 a gallon gas in two separate vehicles. You think a 14 year old from an average middle or lower middle class family is going to be able to afford a $125.00 green fee while trying to afford the $3.80 a piece golf ball? How about the clubs he wants to hit? How much do those things cost?


My point is that your swale drainage might have worked better back then than it does now.  

How? Did gravity change? this is something I hope Steve can present.

It still works in the majority of golf course areas.  But, the needs of golf courses have just changed over time.  

This is because your building them and their holes in the wrong areas. (ultimately, that's what I think I'm getting at!)

I do believe gca's of all eras were smart and good enough to generally do the best possible designs technically and otherwise, given the conditions handed to them.

Somewhat true, but once again, and I say this with all of the respect to you and your profession as well as your fellow architects: Do you actually think Bill Coore (example) and Ted Robinson (example) are equals in the art of building golf courses?


Honestly, this has been a great thread which to learn from. Even though it did get personal, which I hoped wouldn't have been the case. Surely all have something to learn from it.

TEPaul

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #80 on: March 10, 2007, 08:25:48 AM »
I wholeheartedly second Sean Arble's post #81. It lays out where this thread should go, in my opinion.

Steve Lang:

Thanks for all the technical data on the over-all subject of drainage you supplied. I only wish I could interpret it and understand it better.

I also like what Chris Cupit said he learned (after initially not figuring it out) by hanging around out in the field and asking drainage questions.

wsmorrison

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2007, 09:14:48 AM »
Does modern equipment and sub-surface drainage solutions reduce the use of surface drainage techniques?  

Do some modern design trends, enabled by big budgets and technological advancements, including containment mounds and "big" architecture that requires substantial earth moving, necessitate the use of more sub-surface drainage?  

Can/do fees based on a percentage of the construction budget influence designs that require enormous engineering/construction expenses?

Sean,

I also think the consequences from the way architects route golf courses, either to make use of great natural features in play or to lead the golfer to beautiful vistas is a fascinating decision making process where balances are struck in the way other holes are affected or engineering difficulties that may be encountered.  The engineering record of the building of the Cascades is a fascinating glimpse of what was necessitated by routing decisions.  An account by the chief engineer of the Homestead resort, RH Patterson, in the March 1927 Green Section Bulletin is a worthwhile read, especially if you know the golf course.  The golf course looks like it was laid out on the site when in fact it was heavily engineered.  Knowing that 25 square miles of mountain land drains through the golf course makes the architectural feat even more interesting.

 

Kyle Harris

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2007, 09:19:54 AM »
Look downstream from Huntingdon Valley and you'll see why it drains so well.

After exiting the course near C-4, the creek runs through the protected Pennypack Trust property, through Victorian Bryn Athyn, and then onto Philmont Country Club's South Course.

Downstream from the South Course is Bensalem, Somerton, Trevose - in other words - Northeast Philadelphia. Philmont's South Course becomes a swamp in any sort of rain while Huntingdon Valley remains dry as a bone.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2007, 09:21:39 AM »
Tommy,

I have said most of what I need to say on this thread, and the way you and I have batted the ball back and forth, the casual reader will accuse us both of - GASP! -being closet tennis players!

When you expand the discussion of drainage to routing, my sentiments were ably summed up by Sean.  That said, your arguments strike me as black and white thinking, as in, "Its either the old way or the highway."  I have simply been trying to add shades of grey that truly do exist in the real world.   It truly is frustrating to argue with Mucci style tennis volleys, whether they come from him, you, me or anyone.  Sorry if that shows through in some of my posts.

I think I have offered plenty of hints at how drainage swales might be minimized, "correctly located" etc.  As to how your boys do it, I suggest you re-read Tony R's post on a course you hold up as an epitome of drainage.  He is not the first person to suggest that the course has had some drainage problems that had to be corrected post opening.  (I have heard it elsewhere)  

While all gca's and courses have that to some degree, doesn't the presence of those drainage problems suggest to a reasonable person that the CC design method might stand some improvement in considering drainage in order to build a functioning golf course right out of the box?  The proof, as they say, is in the pudding like wet soils you must play through, no?

I generally agree that the less the better, I also have stated that "necessary" is, well, necessary.  And necessary is site specific and also part of a value judgement as Forrest says - do I want to be back in play in an hour, a day, a week?  One poster suggested that the culture of GBI is kind of to live with minor problems almost forever.  My take is that the culture of the USA says no to that.

Neither of us (or golfers or the Owner) would want CC to change their unique style just because of drainage, and I don't think they have to - but I think it possible that their architecture would improve with better drainage, if for no other reason than to implement firm and fast!  My only suggestion to CC would be to have added the drainage that was obviously "necessary" (by its actual addition) in the first place.  Nothing more, nothing less!  

While I have laid out several possible drainage scheme philosophies/scenarios that different gca's might apply to actual sites,  I don't know the course specifics at Cuscowilla.  However, I suspect they could have accomplished their design on that site AND improved drainage without too many visible catch basins - or too large a change in style.  

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2007, 10:00:46 AM »
"Neither of us (or golfers or the Owner) would want CC to change their unique style just because of drainage, and I don't think they have to - but I think it possible that their architecture would improve with better drainage, if for no other reason than to implement firm and fast!"

Jeff:

The last part of that remark got my attention.

The question is does a style of architecture (and drainage) like Coore and Crenshaw's make a more consistent and more frequent and better firm and fast playability harder to acheive day in and day out as well as how fast the course can get back to it after rain? You seem to be implying that possibility and it would be interesting to check around to see if that implication bears out.

I do know, for instance, they apparently really sand based most of their approaches pretty far out on one of their Long Island projects. Obviously they did that to enhance firm and fast playability.

But surface drainage or catch basins or whatever else in the water moving department on the surface or through pipes aside, what about architects testing the "through the profile" drainage of courses they build and the sites they build on with the idea of maintaining frequent and better firm and fast playability?

How does one go about that? How do you test for that on sites both before and after construction (obviously I'm primarily referring to fairways and approaches)?

Do you do some form of perc testing in those "through the green" area either before or after construction or both? Can you test how well water is going through the profile or growing medium during construction and if so what are some of the parameters of that kind of testing as far as you know?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 10:09:00 AM by TEPaul »

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2007, 10:12:09 AM »
Tommy,

Clueless was too strong (Sorry)--I'll buy the BBQ whenever you want--particularly since I agree wholeheartadley (yeah I know it's mispelled) with your Engh analysis!!

I will say I was absolutely intrigued when I saw the first couple of holes at Reynolds but by the fifth or sixth holes it was too much of the same "moonscape" everywhere.

I think it will be a maintenance nightmare (I heard a $2MM annual budget) and I think it's unplayable for seniors, ladies and anyone else that isn't a single digit handicapper.

But, as contrived as it looked to me, it is very unique to the area which is nice although I did look at some of his courses (out west primarily?) and they all kind of looked the same.

Anyway, BBQ on me :)  


TEPaul

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2007, 10:17:12 AM »
I'll tell you one thing, JeffB, an architect may be able to convince me to put up with a little architectural "butt-ugliness" if it can and will dramatically up the frequent and consistent firm and fast factor and dramatically up the degree of it (I'm talking the percentage increase of bounce and rollout in yards here).

Ex: If an architect can prove to me that a 5% increase in architectural "butt-ugliness" due to catch basins and stuff can up the bounce and rollout by something like 50% or more on a regular and consistent basis, I might just tell that architect to up the architectural "butt-ugliness" factor to something like 7% or even 8 3/5%.  ;)

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2007, 10:24:14 AM »
I'll tell you one thing, JeffB, an architect may be able to convince me to put up with a little architectural "butt-ugliness" if it can and will dramatically up the frequent and consistent firm and fast factor and dramatically up the degree of it (I'm talking the percentage increase of bounce and rollout in yards here).

Ex: If an architect can prove to me that a 5% increase in architectural "butt-ugliness" due to catch basins and stuff can up the bounce and rollout by something like 50% or more on a regular and consistent basis, I might just tell that architect to up the architectural "butt-ugliness" factor to something like 7% or even 8 3/5%.  ;)

Is that now to be called the Butt Ugly Form Factor...or BUFF for short?

 ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2007, 10:36:22 AM »
Chris,

Thanks for that post.  I have partially remodeled a Joe Lee course in Atlanta and your post confirms my points - in the old days, they didn't think about drainage past the long swales that Tommy advocates and played "catch up" for years afterwards, which Tommy conveniently ignores. I think a good analogy is to what we drive today.  Does Tommy still drive a Model T from the 1920's believing that nothing has improved since then?

And, tile drains don't work as well as basins for surface water drainage issues, so they spend more money for fewer results.

Worse yet, it still happens today, either through Owner not having budgets, or hiring inexperienced gca's (including golf writers who convince them that reading a few history books and pulling out a few quotes makes them a gca) .  

Tommy,

To answer your question re CC vs. Robinson - yes I think they are on equal footing.  Believe it or not, there is not just one reason to build a golf course, or one way to build a golf course, nor does everyone share your narrow beliefs about how to build a golf course "right".  That is a point I have made here on this very thread.  You assume because you like CC better, it must be an ABSOLUTE fact rather than opinion as to who is better.  

I hate to add to this "personal stuff", but in rereading your post you (I think) included a few quotes from other sources in a way that makes it look like I said them.  I don't think I ever said that my competitors suggest I don't build strategic courses and the media picks up on it.  Was that a Fazio quote?

And I have let pass your references to me making this "personal" but really, after years of using this site to bash architects in inflamatory and personal (can we forget "Damian 666 for instance?) ways, exagerating, defaming, dismissing, misconstruing, or putting words in our mouths (calling even simple facts I have written here- like play is down - "hyperbole" for instance, and using that as a jumping off point for some of your own tired hyperbole) how can you be SHOCKED, SHOCKED when someone actually succumbs to respsonding in like kind? Seriously, don't you think your rhetoric has occaisionally been taken as just a bit "personal" by other posters here?


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2007, 10:55:54 AM »
 8)

Joe.. Can BUFFY the Moisture Slayer or mascot be far behind?


For just a minute or two it looked like this thread was going to end.. happily ever after.. ok,maybe not..

Would a compormise be.. changing the thread title to..

Challenged Golf Course Drainage.. Modern Reality vs Old Fact?


Give me sand with transmissivity versus clay any day and water will dissappear.  Sand can carry water at rates quantified in "feet per day", versus clayey soils that have values in "feet per year".. no wonder soggy begets soggy on clayey soils.. and the king lives at the top of the hill..
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 11:07:10 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2007, 11:33:44 AM »
"Neither of us (or golfers or the Owner) would want CC to change their unique style just because of drainage, and I don't think they have to - but I think it possible that their architecture would improve with better drainage, if for no other reason than to implement firm and fast!"

Jeff:

The last part of that remark got my attention.

The question is does a style of architecture (and drainage) like Coore and Crenshaw's make a more consistent and more frequent and better firm and fast playability harder to acheive day in and day out as well as how fast the course can get back to it after rain? You seem to be implying that possibility and it would be interesting to check around to see if that implication bears out.

I do know, for instance, they apparently really sand based most of their approaches pretty far out on one of their Long Island projects. Obviously they did that to enhance firm and fast playability.

But surface drainage or catch basins or whatever else in the water moving department on the surface or through pipes aside, what about architects testing the "through the profile" drainage of courses they build and the sites they build on with the idea of maintaining frequent and better firm and fast playability?

How does one go about that? How do you test for that on sites both before and after construction (obviously I'm primarily referring to fairways and approaches)?

Do you do some form of perc testing in those "through the green" area either before or after construction or both? Can you test how well water is going through the profile or growing medium during construction and if so what are some of the parameters of that kind of testing as far as you know?

TePaul,

We usually know the general soils characteristics from county soils maps and do supplement them with specific soils tests.  Perc rates are easy to determine but if its not sand, it will be too slow generally to achieve firm and fast, especially where greens drainage runs through the approach, and I know those areas will be soggy much of the time.

I agree with you that is a value judgement.  And that 5% more drainage in critical areas to achieve the benefits of 50% more drainage and drier conditions is a GREAT trade off.  Maybe even 8% to achieve 40% better drainage.

As such, more and more gca's (including Doak, if I recall some of his posts) are using a 4" sand cap and herringbone perforated tiles in the frontal approaches and fw chipping areas surrounding the green to achieve firm and fast, or to truly allow the chip shot options from around the greens to play like the old Scottish courses do.  What we have found is that just mowing the grass short in different soils doesn't always cut it.

While I can sympathize with Tommy and others who hate basins and all the extra engineering that goes into golf courses today.  It DOES seem that sometimes the engineeing creates just another problem.  But, its a value judgement that most have been making.  If we want grass bunkers or chocolate drop mounds in clay soil, we need to drain them.  If we want firm and fast in clay soil, we need to create them by extra drainage/importing of sand.  

As to surface drainage,  there are some benefits to the general CC (and others) approach to leaving natural contour, where they are gentle and produce sheet flow drainage.  Native soils are well compacted and drain better than ones that have been graded. Thus, if I was grading a flat area, my minimum slope might be 3%, but I would leave a natural slope of about 2% feeling it would drain just fine.

The problems come when the landforms take waters to swales which concentrates water, adding to soil erosion during construction and sogginess after.

A typical scenario to keep the fw dry (which I think I described earlier a bit) is to look for large drainage basins that will cross a proposed fw in a critical area, like the major landing areas, just in front of a green, or on most courses, a highly trafficed cart area.  If the swales cross behind the green or in front of the tee, I would probably leave them alone.  There are formulas for determining such things, but generally, if more than a few acres are coming across the fw, it will be wet under turf maintenance conditions.  You can get a decent idea in the field by observing if the native soils show any signs of erosion or sogginess after rains in the valleys.  If there is any sign of it, it probably won't be suitable for growing fw quality turf.  Sometimes I am surprised at how well even large drainage swales drain, and other times I am surprised at how poorly small ones do!  Its a combination of slopes, soils, and drainage area that determine it on a site specific basis.  (And for Tommy - I repeat that the old courses did in fact add a lot of drainage later in many, if not all, their old swales)

As a result, I would add a catch basin OUT IN THE ROUGH (caps inserted for Tommy's sake) to keep it from flowing over the fw, and thus keeping the fw dry by limiting drainage needs to just what falls on the fw, much like and engineer keeps roads dry and safe, which is easily handled with surface flow.  Of course, I wouldn't use such straight line grading, but it is easy enough to disguise the grading by modern shapers.

There is no need to add basins in the fw, but if the drain pipe can't be buried deep enough and still achieve flow, then we might have to add some fill to raise the fw over the pipe.  And, if the fw didn't have adequate pitch, we have that pipe there, and its easy to tie a inlet into it.

Again, it seems fairly logical to me that to keep a critical area firm and fast and dry, the best way to do that is to keep the excess water from getting to it in the first place.  And, that's where altering surface flow a bit, adding a smattering of catch basins etc. really improves the turf conditions for a superintendent.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2007, 11:43:18 AM »
8)

Joe.. Can BUFFY the Moisture Slayer or mascot be far behind?


For just a minute or two it looked like this thread was going to end.. happily ever after.. ok,maybe not..

Would a compormise be.. changing the thread title to..

Challenged Golf Course Drainage.. Modern Reality vs Old Fact?


Give me sand with transmissivity versus clay any day and water will dissappear.  Sand can carry water at rates quantified in "feet per day", versus clayey soils that have values in "feet per year".. no wonder soggy begets soggy on clayey soils.. and the king lives at the top of the hill..

Steve,

No, this thread will not die, like a vampire, unless someone puts a dagger in the heart.....maybe the moderator will lock it. Now, who is the moderator again? ;)

BTW, the soil perc rates for the black gumbo soil in my front yard is 0.3" per hour.  Sand might drain 30" per hour, or 100 times faster.  Yeah, there are some differences drainage designers have to account for, particularly when you take Houston type rains on that 0.3"/hour soils that they have down there.  But nah, the old guys had it right and modern gca's even considering doing anything differently than Thomas did in the So Cal dry climate is just a crime against nature.  We should all be taken out and shot! :)

Or maybe we should just build a few courses out in the sand hills or bandon, etc.  How affordable would golf be if we had to add in air fare to go play golf because courses should only be built in what Tommy concludes are the "right" areas?  Actually, a single catch basin probably costs about what an airline ticket costs.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2007, 12:18:43 PM »
TePaul,

Looking at improving agronomic conditions in a historic perspective, I think its clear that adding drain pipe to keep surface water off of key areas has generally been favored over changing soil structure.  Even for greens, it took until 1968 for the USGA to recommend wholesale changes in the growing medium, and other areas of the course were, probably for economic reasons, built in existing soils.  

Even today, the cost of hauling sand for USGA greens is one of our most expensive cost items, and with gas prices, etc. getting costlier.  By contrast, after adjusting for inflation, drain pipes have gotten cheaper and cheaper.  I speculate (use that word to squelch Tommy again) that the biggest reason that more drain pipes weren't used in the old days was mostly cost, perhaps with the fact that few had thought of it yet, or perfected the idea.

OT, but I built a course in Lynchburg VA years ago, at the foot of Jefferson's home there (Poplar Forrest)  In the process, I dug up some old drains his slaves had installed - made of cutting tulip trees, which are long and straight, hollowing them out, and then strapping them back together!

Later, pipes were made of clay and cement, which was expensive for golf.  When plastics came in, they became feasible for golf cost wise, and as usual in design, the technology was responsible for changes in design, that extends to routing and features on more severe slope that previously weren't possible, etc.  I will leave it to others to debate whether all of those are good or bad.  That is part of the fun.  But, in reality, golf courses have been constantly more engineered.  I believe that its generally an improvement, at least agronomically and in our ability to build courses where people want to play.  

Some of the high end projects have started importing soils to sand cap entire fw's, making them close to USGA spec.  I suspect that is the wave of the future, and again, wonder if its really necessary.  Certainly, it ruins the view of a golf course as a natural place!  It seems logical that if perfect soil is what we seek, then importing perfect soil where cost is no object is the most direct solution.  But for now, it remains to be seen if controlling the soil is the most cost effective way to improve conditions over drainage, fertilizers and ammendments, and cultural practices.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2007, 01:50:07 PM »
JeffB:

Thanks for the long and comprehensive explanations about drainage but I don't want to talk about that anymore.

All I want you to opine on is if the modern style of "Butt-Ugly" (ie. "catch basin") architecture has a decent future or not.

Michael Whitaker

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2007, 08:52:23 PM »
Tommy - You stated above: "The youth of America, the ones that are supposed to be carrying on the passion and the traditions and ettiquite of the Sport are either playing video games or surfing the internet... Kids also don't have the money to play either because their parents cannot afford putting $3.00 a gallon gas in two separate vehicles. You think a 14 year old from an average middle or lower middle class family is going to be able to afford a $125.00 green fee while trying to afford the $3.80 a piece golf ball? How about the clubs he wants to hit? How much do those things cost?"

Tommy, I don't want to antagonize you but I can't let this go unchallenged. You truly do not have a clue about why kids do or do not play golf. If you want to start another thread I will be happy to fill you in about kids and golf, as this is a subject I have spent some time studying. Your suppositions are just that... suppositions. If you are going to rant, stick to what you know. With all due respect to Mr. Behr, the promotion of golf as a sport and not a game is the crux of the problem with kids and golf, and has a great deal to do with the lack of growth!

Finally, be civil. I thought you were supposed to be setting an example here.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

TEPaul

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2007, 10:29:34 PM »
"With all due respect to Mr. Behr, the promotion of golf as a sport and not a game is the crux of the problem with kids and golf, and has a great deal to do with the lack of growth!"

MichaelW:

Behr's intended distinction in calling golf a sport rather than a game was merely to make the point that the balance of naturalism in golf architecture needed to be preserved to maintain the essence of what golf is. He was just making the point that the playing fields or structure of "games" such as tennis, baseball, football etc should be intentionally and precisely defined and demarked but that recreations that he called a "sport" like fishing, hunting, and golf need to maintain in their fields of recreation or play the element of nature.



Steve Lang

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #96 on: March 11, 2007, 10:26:36 AM »
 8)

Jeff... I was thinking about good ol' NW Ohio clays where for groundwater studies, we used to measure permeability with Shelby tube samplers through hollow stem augers from ground down to 60 feet or so and deeper and find surficial (0-15ft) brown oxidized clay with perms of 1E-5 to 1E-6 cm/sec and lower blue-gray clay units of 1E-6 to 1E-8 cm/sec perms..

1E-6 cm/sec = ~1ft/yr permeability.. I know how folks down here like to talk about their gumbo soils.. but i don't think they match the stuff produced or left by the glaciers retreating 10,000 yrs ago..   :-\    nuff said on that stuff
=============================================

I appreciate Behr's use of the language, and it holds time classic, and makes for great reading.. but I don't get the impression that today's ADD type children (and perhaps some of us older children) can appreciate or want to relate to such Victorian "city-folk" subtleties..  in 2007

I grew up playing golf around our neighborhood yards and then out to the grade school property after some "accidents".. it was a game, played outdoors by kids, uncontrolled, the targets could be a tree, a door, barren ground spots, the burn barrel next to Wright's Greenhouse.   Sports were organized, you had grown ups as coaches, wore uniforms, leagues were organized within/between the high school district.. the difference between amatuer and professional sports was only separated by imagination and having to go home for dinner..  Letter sports were distinguished from club sports.. by the presence of uniformed cheerleaders  too..

We played public golf in grade school for 50-75 cents per round in early-mid 60s' at Toledo's Ottawa Park before 10:00 AM because of the park system's administrators. (Dropped off at 0630AM play 18 and then walk home on west flank of park)  You could cut a few lawns on weekends and play most of the week days, with money for savoring a Dudley's hot dog and some soft ice cream at the 11th tee..  Unless you're a country club kid or really lucky to have a First Tee organization or benevolent kids program at at course close by, I don't know how kids are going to really grow into the game..

they certainly won't be digging drainge ditches..

« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 11:02:08 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Michael Whitaker

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #97 on: March 11, 2007, 10:30:32 AM »
"With all due respect to Mr. Behr, the promotion of golf as a sport and not a game is the crux of the problem with kids and golf, and has a great deal to do with the lack of growth!"

MichaelW:

Behr's intended distinction in calling golf a sport rather than a game was merely to make the point that the balance of naturalism in golf architecture needed to be preserved to maintain the essence of what golf is. He was just making the point that the playing fields or structure of "games" such as tennis, baseball, football etc should be intentionally and precisely defined and demarked but that recreations that he called a "sport" like fishing, hunting, and golf need to maintain in their fields of recreation or play the element of nature.

I understand. I was refering to the context of Tommy's use of the quote.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #98 on: March 11, 2007, 10:54:21 AM »
Steve,

I should have guessed you have Toledo roots, with the Inverness reference.  I was there last weekend, since my mother has (inexplicably) moved back there in retirement.  So, I have played Ottawa Park!

I was once told that clay color (and that is all gumbo is, but southerners are famous for colorful names) is determined mostly by water content.  I could be wrong.  On the other hand, I have never seen a practical golf difference in dealing with blue, yellow, red or black clay.  It's all about the same - either has too much water content or too little!  About once per day, its "just right."

For others, Tommy and I had a nice conversation yesterday evening.  I would hate for anyone to get the impression we aren't friendly.  It occurs to me that part of the length of this thread lies in the fact that we all process information differently.  (For exhibit one, please have a conversation with any handy woman to prove up that point!)  However, even among males with a passion for golf design, there are different thought processes.

For Tommy, ever the idealist and for a lot of reasons, thoughts easily jump to the interconnectedness of all things, making the jump from where to put a catch basin to kids liking video games, Faz's affect on cost of golf and numerous other things he touches on in his posts.

With my thought process, if you ask me why I put a catch basin somewhere, I kind of tend to noodle on that alone (perhaps excessively) and it takes me several jumps of logic to get somewhere else.  It's not that I don't see some threads of connections, but they aren't as direct in my minds eye.  And, I still have a quaint notion that a thread on drainage ought to stay on drainage, with a new thread for something else.  Not that other topics don't drift like a rudderless ship here!

As a result, Tommy and I might trade posts forever, mostly because we may not be talking apples and apples.  There is little chance he will get me to see a connection between a catch basin I locate on a mid priced public course in Newton, KS and anything Faz does in Montana!  And, vice versa.

Anyway, as long as I was in deep thought about this subject, I figured I might as well share that if it has any value for anyone else embroiled in debate here.  Please try to consider how the other person views things, but don't try to change it, cause it ain't gonna happen, nor should it.

PS-All that said, I still think I am right on drainage! ;D But, I will consider other POV because of this web site.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach