Which golf courses are examples of the Veblen effect?

[Garland Bayley]

No it doesn't.  It indicates that vacation golf in a bastion of realtively cheap golf is a Veblan good.  
...

Well Dave, in the context of Wikipedia naming perfume and wine Veblen goods in a bastion of relatively cheap perfume and wine, I would say you are getting a little carried away in your parsing, except that the public in general has no idea of the correct meaning of parsing.

[Tom Yost]

Back to the topic:

I think Troon North is the standard bearer for Veblen golf in the greater Phoenix area.  I'm pretty sure they aren't hurting for business.

I just looked at their web site and during Super Bowl week, they are advertising rates of $295 M-W / $345 T-S  

After the Super Bowl crowd goes home, they return to the much more reasonable rates of $245/$295.

[Garland Bayley]

Seriously Paul,

The Wikipedia definitions speak of preference, not actual purchases, which your definition depends on. The wine study cited demonstrates the existence of Veblen goods, because it objectively demonstrates the preference.

[Paul Stephenson]

...The long and short of it is that there have not been any proven examples of Veblen or Geffen goods, and that it wasn't some other determinate that changed demand. ...

If you can't find any using your definition, then perhaps your definition is wrong. Is that why every time you make a submission to wikipedia, someone edits it out.

That reminds me of the computer company I used to work for.  They used to lower their quarterly sales targets until they hit them.

[David Federman]

This thread brings back great memories of Microeconomics at PSU and the backward bending demand curve. Those were the days. In any event I think a great example lies in Havre de Grace, Md. where Bulle Rock charges $145. and 5 miles down the road, Beechtree can be had for about $85-$100.

I know  a number of folks who I believe think Bulle Rock is better simply because it charges so much more and looks more expensive!

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

               Having played both courses in your Portland example I would choose Eastmoreland.

Yes, but which would you have chosen before you played either?

[Jim Nugent]

Paul Stephenson - I think there may be some Veblen goods, even if that means demand increases with price.  The stock market may be one, at least much of the time.  Same with other bubble markets.  

This does not seem to me merely an upward shift in the demand curve, either.  It's part of the psychology of the bubble.  The higher its price goes, the more people want it.  

[Paul Stephenson]

Seriously Paul,

The Wikipedia definitions speak of preference, not actual purchases, which your definition depends on. The wine study cited demonstrates the existence of Veblen goods, because it objectively demonstrates the preference.

Of course it depends on purchases and not preferences.  In order to be considered a part of the market you must have the willingness and ability to pay for the good or service.

Bombardier doesn't care a lick if I prefer their Global Express more at 60 million rather than 49 million.  I'm irrelevant to them.

I could tell you anything if I'm not prepared or able to purchase it.  I could tell you I'm voting for Obama and turn around and vote for Hillary.  

It is my action, my vote, my purchase that makes my opinion significant.  Except in this case  

I'm going to edit Wikipedia now...

[Craig Van Egmond]

Garland,

               Certainly 12 years ago I would have played The Reserve first and would not have given Eastmoreland a second thought. However, being a big fan of H. Chandler Egans work I certainly would not go with the Reserve.  Although I always enjoyed the opportunity to play with Pete Pittock.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I'm going to edit Wikipedia now...

Let us know when you are done.

[Tim Pitner]

Is the success of Bandon at least partly attributable to the Veblen good concept?  There are other factors at work (word of mouth, marketing, etc.), but it seems to me that the demand for golf at Bandon has increased, particularly among a certain type of customer, as the greens fees and lodging costs have increased.  

[Paul Stephenson]

It would have to be price alone that caused quantity demanded to increase.  If any of those other factors mentioned come into play then it can be explained by classical economics.

It's a chicken and egg thing.  Classical economics would explain that the increased word of mouth, successful marketing etc. increased demand.  Therefore Bandon could adjust their price up.

For Veblen to hold true, then the price increase would be the first thing to happen, and people would flock to it so that they could brag.

Personally I think a week of golf is too cheap to be a Veblen good.  That and I don't think there is such a thing.

[Norbert P]

  I would offer a qualified opinion if we were discussing plebian effect of golf courses.

"Ya know I aint no amoeba."  Bonnie Raitt

[Scott Weersing]

Is the success of Bandon at least partly attributable to the Veblen good concept?  There are other factors at work (word of mouth, marketing, etc.), but it seems to me that the demand for golf at Bandon has increased, particularly among a certain type of customer, as the greens fees and lodging costs have increased.  

No, I don't think there is a Veblen effect at Bandon. The price for golf and lodging in February has not increased since 2005. If Bandon was a Veblen effect, then the rates would have to increase year after year. Only 21 days until I am at Bandon!!

[J Sadowsky]

One could argue that a number of ultra-exclusive private golf clubs are Veblen Goods.  But I think its better to say that they have Veblen Effects, as they aren't going to truly meet the definition.  

I think there definitely is a market for $500,000 initiaiton clubs over $100,000 initiation clubs, because of the prestige and exclusivity.  But if you're going to have a $500,000 golf club, you might as well make it a very good one.  And if you are going to make it very good, you're going to have a bunch of people (perhaps not the same people), who are willing to join it for $100,000, but not for $500,000.

Still, the reasons why some people choose to join a $500,000 club over an equally nice $100,000 club is, in part, the Veblen effect.  There's something that oozes exclusivity about an Augusta or a Sebonack.  And people will want to pay more for it, not just because of scarcity, but to KEEP IT exclusive, lest it lose its value to them.  And that's the concept that a Veblen good is getting at.

It's just with golf, there is too many legitimate quality differences between golf clubs for the Veblen effect to counterweight the other effects, and truly get an upwards-sloping demand curve.

[Tim Pitner]

Is the success of Bandon at least partly attributable to the Veblen good concept?  There are other factors at work (word of mouth, marketing, etc.), but it seems to me that the demand for golf at Bandon has increased, particularly among a certain type of customer, as the greens fees and lodging costs have increased.  

No, I don't think there is a Veblen effect at Bandon. The price for golf and lodging in February has not increased since 2005. If Bandon was a Veblen effect, then the rates would have to increase year after year. Only 21 days until I am at Bandon!!

Scott,

Since 2001, the prices at Bandon have certainly increased (beyond the rate of inflation) in a couple of steps.