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Phil_the_Author

Historical Help...
« on: April 05, 2007, 11:19:58 PM »
Anyone know what club was the first to have two course contiguous to each other? Also, what club was the first to build two courses at one time?

Wayne_Kozun

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Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 11:22:24 PM »
How do you define club?  Would St Andrews count - if so then the New Course opened in 1895 - would that be the first?  

Phil_the_Author

Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 11:28:23 PM »
Let's narrow it to the US.

I define golf club as the owning entity. Today, the owning entity, Bethpage State Park, owns 5 courses that are contiguous (on connecting property) to each other, three of which were designed and built at the same time.

Merion, the owning entity, owns 2 golf courses built at different times and on properties that are not contiguous.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 11:42:12 PM »
Are you thinking pre- 1920s?


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Phil McDade

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Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 11:44:10 PM »
Both still in existence? Both 18 holes? Would Macdonald's famous 9 adjacent to Newport count?

Phil_the_Author

Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 11:46:48 PM »
I see how I wasn't as specific as I should have been...

Both courses having 18 holes. They don't have to be still in existence. This is just to answer a question that was posed to me.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 11:49:48 PM »
I can't think of any in the east prior to 1920 with 2 contiguous courses. Winged Foot, Baltusrol and Philmont were built or added a course in the 1920s.

How about Medinah or Olympia Fields?



"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Phil_the_Author

Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 11:54:13 PM »
Baltusrol would be 1922, and even though 18 holes were kept open for play throughout the project, these were 2 new courses as even the holes (7 of them if my memory is correct)that were preserved were, for the most part, substantially redesigned and changed.

Winged Foot opened several years later, and I am unsure of the dates for the others.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 11:55:25 PM by Philip Young »

RJ_Daley

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Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2007, 12:03:31 AM »
I don't have my Tom Bendelow biography by Stewart Bendelow handy, but I seem to remember he had one with two 18 hole loops in around 1905ish.
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Tim_Cronin

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Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2007, 12:21:48 AM »
Olympia Fields' first course opened in 1916, No. 2 in 1917 or 1918, No. 3 in 1920, and No. 4 in 1923. But Pinehurst had two courses well before OFCC was an idea. Don't have the dates at hand.
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Brad Klein

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Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2007, 02:49:14 AM »
Pinehurst courses were built serially -- in order of current designations: 1,2,4,3,5. The No. 2 course was up and running 1903 or so, with No. 4 course in 1912.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 02:49:23 AM by Brad Klein »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2007, 10:46:03 AM »
This is hard to believe but Norwood Hills (then known as North Hills) opened on June 23, 1923 with 45 holes.  Two 18 hole courses for the men and a nine holer for the ladies.  Wayne Stiles - St. Louis, Mo

Chris_Blakely

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Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2007, 11:15:36 AM »
I would think Salisbury CC would predate all of the courses listed.  I believe the first was around 1917 and the second course addes shortly there after.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2007, 11:25:05 AM »
What I find amazing about Norwood Hills is that it was designed and opened at 45 holes all on the same day.  Not over a period of time like most courses.  Must have been some roaring 20's excess at its best.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2007, 01:08:23 PM »
Chris, part of the question has to do with the contiguous nature of the two courses; I am not certain that Salisbury's first two courses were. I could be wrong, but I believe they were built along the lines of Merion on 2 different yet close by properties. That would come later as the complex would grow to a total of 5 courses.

John, I never knew that North Hills opened with 45 holes. That would make it the largest individual golf project and remain so until Bethpage with it's three courses were built in the 30's.


Chris_Blakely

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Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2007, 01:55:45 PM »
Philip,

I believe they were, but that does not matter because I saw  Brad's dates for Pinehurst and that has to be the front runner for earliest.  I also was aware of the 5 total courses at Salisbury as well, but believe the first two were contiguous.

Chris

Rick Wolffe

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Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2007, 02:59:10 PM »
So Phil, can I clarify the historical question and ask which was the first 36-hole golf design in America?  Not which was first to have 36 holes or 54 holes?

It sounds like Bethpage may have been the first 54-hole design plus a renovation of the existing 18 hole course, which is now the Green course.

In August of 1919, Golf Illustrated published a feature article by H.I. Fitzpatrick, which I quote, "...they are planning at ______ on a vaster scale than has ever been attempted on an American golf course, to insure a good turf, thick, plentiful and deep-rooted, to be ready for the opening of the Dual Courses.  On some 150 acres that have been bought, increasing the _______ holdings to nearly 350 acres, ever since last winter, they have been chopping trees, pulling or blasting stumps, ploughing, harrowing, sub-irrgating and what not, to prepare for the grass seeding.  All this was finished in June.  Then came a new experiment on a mighty scope and extent, the treating of the soil to a crop of soy beans and cow peas stimulated by a chemical coctail of impregnation to hasten the growth, so that the perennial plants may send their long tap roots into the subsoil, that the nodules on them may breed the minute bacteria that extracts the nitrogen from the air and changes it, by magical transformation, into the most valuable of fertilizing elements."

So I have four questions:

1. What were the first three 36-hole golf course design projects that were constructed simultaneously in America?

2. What club/course is in the blank _________ above?

3. What was so unique about the experiment cited above on treating the soil to a crop of soy beans and cow peas stimulated by a chemical coctail of impregnation to hasten growth?

4. What were the first three 36-hole golf course design projects constructed simultaneously outside of America?

A nice prize of a signed golf architecture book will go to the person who gets these questions most correct.  Thank you for participating.

- RW

Phil_the_Author

Re:Historical Help...
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2007, 12:43:11 PM »
Rick, I guess the questions were too tough?

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