Apache Stronghold

[Tom Huckaby]

Concur with George.  What matters most is how it is NOW, not what they've been through.  Heartless yes but hey, I'm just a consumer.  

I just can't tell from any of this who's been there most frequently.

I will say that picture looks just fine to me... can't see any conditioning issues... although it would seem to be a drag they water so much it collects in that low part on the green!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I have not yet played AS but it seems to me that after reading many posts on this course that the warmer the weather, the better the conditions.

[Jay Flemma]

Garland, never mind the yardage book.  Even though Doak says it wasn't "intended" to be a biarritz, it turned out that way, is akin to a biarritz and has a swale so that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  Same for you Noel.

Silva called it a Biarritz and he has more experience with Biarritzes than you, me and Noel combined, so I'm with Brian.

The green has the most significant element of a biarritz, the swale and shelves.  Like a biarritz, the severity of the green defends par as part of the design and needs little bunkering, if any to support the fact that not many people will be one-putting.

Never mind "there isn't a bunker over here", or "its not as long as Yale" or "its not on a par three" screw all that.

Brian, nice job on the photo.

Tom, don't retire the concept, its not stale.  We can always use interesting greens.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Do yourself a huge favor -- simply contact Pat Brockwell -- the superintendent at Black Mesa and he can spell out all the details for you to review as to when, how and the exact duration of what took place.

Pat often has contributed to this site and is well versed in these areas beyond what I can say -- and frankly what you can offer as well. I know what happened after the winter from last year so when you get Pat's take I am sure he can assist you if you think he has credibility on the topic.

For you to say you hit off dirt areas without greater clarification is also an insult to the generally fine turf conditions found at Black Mesa. I'm sure if one were to look under every nook and crannny -- one can find something to bitch about on turf conditions on any course.

The issue you raised initially was to draw some sort of link between the overall poor to inconsistent turf conditions at AS versus a very limited situation that has happened at Black Mesa.

Of course, in your case, when someone makes a one time visit it's possible one may draw conclusions that should be weighed in the narrowest manner.

So much for context.

[Jay Flemma]

I have to say, I had no problem whatsoever with the conditioning at BM and thought is was fine.

[Andy Troeger]

I was hitting shots off bare dirt in the fairways at Black Mesa last fall and I don't see anyone getting on here and complaining about that. Perhaps they just "improved" their lies.

Garland,
When were you there? When I played in mid-October I didn't notice any major conditioning issues. Granted...I don't hit that many fairways sometimes

[Bryan Izatt]

I'm with you Jay.  Solidarity forever.  

To borrow from another unmentionable thread about template holes - when I played it, it looked like it was at least inspired by a Biarritz concept.  But then when is a Biarritz a Biarritz.  Tom D has clarified he was inspired by a hole at Crystal Downs. I'm not familiar with that hole.  Was it inspired by a Biarritz?

The picture doesn't do justice to the back tier, but the water is running down the swale for a reason - there is a back tier, albeit not as high as the front tier.

Huck,

The green was running water in the picture because the sprinkler head was stuck.  We called the shop; they came and fixed it.  The fairways were as dry and dusty as any I've played.  Real hard and fast.  Gotta love tan fairways.  The greens are bent grass I believe, so they don't go dormant in the winter.

I was there a year and a quarter ago.  I'd defer to more current opinions on conditioning.  They seem to suggest it's better than it was (at some point in the past).  I'll post a more current opinion at the end of the month after I go there.

Anybody have any idea when the Bermuda comes out of its dormant stage?  Any chance for the beginning of March?

[Jay Flemma]

Well, I had a front pin the day I played Crystal, so I don't remember much about the back tier, but the tiers on 5 at AS are distinct enough and the swale long and deep enough to make a fellow award-wining architect ooh and ahh over its Biarritz resemblance.

Anyway, there is a super collection of greens and hole shapes at Apache.  Everything should be doen to preserve this treasure because Doak's work here was astoundingly good.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bryan - thanks!  That pic did look odd and I figured there had to be a simple explanation.  The place looks fine to me from that pic... I'm thinking the reports of awful conditions might be exaggeration.  But I'm still not booking my trip out there just yet.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Right about that one Tom,

Bad playing conditions are very relative.  If you are accustomed to playing private tracks with little play, it may seem pretty bad.  But if you are playing poorly maintained munis for the most part, then I'm guessing AS isn't that bad!

As for me, I would much rather play a great layout with marginal conditioning, than a boring, uninteresting track with nice conditioning....but thats just me.

[Jay Flemma]

Right about that one Tom,

Bad playing conditions are very relative.  If you are accustomed to playing private tracks with little play, it may seem pretty bad.  But if you are playing poorly maintained munis for the most part, then I'm guessing AS isn't that bad!

As for me, I would much rather play a great layout with marginal conditioning, than a boring, uninteresting track with nice conditioning....but thats just me.

Right on target Kalen.  And right about Apache...if you can look the other way about some conditioning, your intrepidness will be rewarded.

[Tom Huckaby]

I guess the difference is I play crappy conditioned munis because I have no other choice and I have a 6 hour block of time max at home usually and they are what is available.

It's a different story when it comes to travel... especially when one is lucky to get two golf trips a year and one is already taken.

So I'm just not sure I'm ready to be an intrepid traveller under these circumstances.  I want to take very few risks, if that makes sense.  And as much as AS seems ok to me, well... Cary's words and those of others continue to scare me.

[Tom_Doak]

Well, why take my word for it when there are so many other alternative realities out there?

(Not directed at you, Mr. Huckaby.  There are better examples of my work to visit as it stands today ... but if Apache Stronghold is above "passable" it's a pretty good deal.)

[Craig Sweet]

 Matt Ward....

"Gents:

Grading course conditions is akin to assessing the food quality one deems appropriate."

So you slammed The Old Works for being too wet when you played it one Sept. totally ignoring the late season rains that year....by the way, late season rains on a course designed NOT TO DRAIN!!!

[Jonathan Cummings]

I happen to think (like most everybody on gca) that PD, Kidnappers and Barnbougle are world class golf courses.  I love playing golf by the windswept seas and these three have few equals in that category.

But I always wonder if you mentally blot out the views and re-assess these three how much 'scenic hit' they would take.

Brad Klein has said something to the effect that if you play a course and it makes an impression on you, you should be able to drawn a stick figure routing of the layout in the bar after the round.  I've played PD 10 times and still don't think I could accurately do such a drawing.  Barn and Kid I've played three times and could come pretty close.  AS I've also played three times (last being around 10 years ago) and I can draw the course perfectly and can remember each hole.

No, you can't play a course and enjoy it when it is dirt.  But I can jumb into a cart (without my clubs) drive AS and easily marvel at the brilliant routing.  It's a great example of where the sum of the parts equal something greater than the whole -something very few golf courses can say.

J  

[Bryan Izatt]

Huck,

Here are two more pictures to entice you.  The fairway in the first was fairly typical when I was there.  It's the approach on the fifth to the (maybe Biarritz) green.  Quite playable, but surely not overseeded rye like in the Vallley of the Sun.  The second photo is of the short par 4 sixth hole - a splendid hole.

For me there is a question of value in deciding where to play.  Would I enjoy TSN or Troon North four or five times more than AS.  Not likely unless conditions at AS are really atrocious.  A chance I'm willing to take.  And, if all else fails, the drive up to Globe is pretty nice in its own right.

[Don_Mahaffey]

It's pretty simple; if you caught the course when they were transitioning from cool season turf to bermuda then you caught it during a very rough spell. I believe Cary was there at that time.
Given the manner in which they take care of the course the switch to bermuda was a real plus...but in Globe it will be dormant for half the year and it's obvious that a lot of folks here don't understand dormant grass.
If you want to catch the course at its best, given how its cared for, I'd plan a visit in May-June, or Oct-Nov. During those times you'll have the best chance of catching the bent greens in decent shape.
I believe it's one of the best modern designs I've ever seen, with an outstanding routing and the best set of greens I've seen on a course built in the last 30 years.
Although the greens have plenty of macro movement, pay particular attention to the micro movement within the greens. The 6th, 11th, 15th, and 17th are my favorites.
When the course opened the 13th hole just blew me away; a spectacular tee shot. The approach to the 4th hole isn't bad either.

It's definitely not everyone's cup of tee, the hotel/casino is horrendous and I'd pack a lunch or starve before I ate there again, but the course is a lot more then some cult course worshiped by Doak groupies.

[Noel Freeman]

I'm glad to see that the course is recovering bit by bit.  I agree with Jonathan, I think it is a wonderful collection of great template holes, shows great use of the arroyos, and is a great price.

 
Jay-- I'm sorry I'm confused.. Counselor, you say above that it is a wonderful collection of template holes but Tom Doak said it was not meant as a biarritz, therefore not a template hole.

The 13th at Crystal Downs is one of the great Maxwell greens and to my recollection is not biarritz-like.. It has an almost plateau in the front than falls away sharply into a bowl.  It reminds me of the 10th at Hidden Creek (look at the picture on this site) and in some respects to a Tillie green at Alpine CC (11th).

I obviously have to defer to Brian Silva in golf architecture knowledge but I think Tom is inspired by the classics but doesnt necessarily build replicas or templates--he's built modified redans for sure..  If we really expand our definitions of what a biarritz is, we'll next think double plateau's as done by CB and Raynor are actual biarritz inspired.  And that is not true.

Apache Stronghold is not a series of template holes.  Brian and Mark Mungeam build a lot of template holes into their new designs and I like them--of note is Mark's Oxford Greens in CT which has a redan, punchbowl and double plateau.

I think it is a fool's errand to attempt to trace the intellectual genaology of the holes as laid out by Tom Doak-- Tom has a virtual encylopaedia of a mind regarding golf holes and the content of his holes are never really templates to my mind.. Just my opinion.

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

Thanks for your further thoughts.

I understand that it's probably more than a coincidence that the three courses I've designed within sight of the ocean are all among the top 50 in the world, and away from the ocean I'm 0-for-19.  And I understand that some people are suspicious of those courses' true quality for that reason, and eager to find an inland course which they think is better, hole for hole.  Hopefully we can continue to provide good candidates and someday break our inland hex.

However, I am sure I don't agree with Brad Klein's theory of being able to draw a routing of the course after you play as a sign of quality.  One of the things I like most about Pacific Dunes is that it's so easy to become lost in the setting that it is hard to figure out how the holes relate to one another ... personally I think that is a big plus.  In fact it is a really intricate routing to get you to the water in the places it does, and it took several months of effort to figure out how to make it work.  By contrast, the routing at Apache Stronghold is essentially two big counter-clockwise loops ... easy to remember but I don't think that makes it better.

Bryan:

Thanks for posting those beautiful pictures of dormant grass.

[jeffwarne]

Is it just me or does dormant bermuda look better than overseed on a desert course?

I understand the practical and business realities of overseeding and when it's not wet and sloppy I often enjoy it in the southeast , but overseeded desert courses always look so fake to me.

Those pictures make the course almost fit into the landscape and make me want to play it, and in the past I have detested the desert courses I've played.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well, why take my word for it when there are so many other alternative realities out there?

(Not directed at you, Mr. Huckaby.  There are better examples of my work to visit as it stands today ... but if Apache Stronghold is above "passable" it's a pretty good deal.)

TD - I know that wasn't directed at me, but still... had you opined on conditions hell yes I would have taken that as VERY valuable information.   I just hadn't read anything from you before this about the conditions one way or the other.

Note I have never doubted the greatness of the course itself...  my questions remain how playable is it.  And remember time is the more important quantity than money (to me).  And remember also I'm not seeking out your work per se (no offense), I'm just interested in playing a golf course that looks to be pretty damn fun.

 

[Pat Brockwell]

I'm late to this thread, but I would like to make a comment about comment and discussion on conditions at any golf course.  As a superintendent, I ask that people talk TO us, not ABOUT us.  There are always reasons that things are the way they are.  Our work is out there for all to see, the reasons that things may be less than perfect are seldom apparent.  At Black Mesa last fall we had to deal with some big rain runoff events where I lost a few spots of turf.  Good news, turf is a forgiving crop and things are looking great after a nice wet winter here at Black Mesa.

[rjsimper]

Does the lack of color make the course more or less visually intimidating?

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm late to this thread, but I would like to make a comment about comment and discussion on conditions at any golf course.  As a superintendent, I ask that people talk TO us, not ABOUT us.  There are always reasons that things are the way they are.  Our work is out there for all to see, the reasons that things may be less than perfect are seldom apparent.  At Black Mesa last fall we had to deal with some big rain runoff events where I lost a few spots of turf.  Good news, turf is a forgiving crop and things are looking great after a nice wet winter here at Black Mesa.

Pat,

I find that interesting in that as a regular golfer not affiliated with any publication it would be in my opinion pretentious to disturb a super while he is at work.  Could you get anything done if you had to brief every golfer about every issue you face during the course of a day.  I just can't see myself hunting up a super after a round and requesting explanations for poor conditioning.  

[Garland Bayley]

I'm late to this thread, but I would like to make a comment about comment and discussion on conditions at any golf course.  As a superintendent, I ask that people talk TO us, not ABOUT us.  There are always reasons that things are the way they are.  Our work is out there for all to see, the reasons that things may be less than perfect are seldom apparent.  At Black Mesa last fall we had to deal with some big rain runoff events where I lost a few spots of turf.  Good news, turf is a forgiving crop and things are looking great after a nice wet winter here at Black Mesa.

IMHO what you ask is not very realistic. Clearly the vast majority of golfers who play a course never contact or ever think to contact the superintendant about the conditions. However, they do tell their friends about their experience, and there is no stopping that.

I will IM you on my experience as your explanation does not seem to explain my experience.