Apache Stronghold

[Jim Dawson]

 Has anyone been to Apache Stronghold in late 2006 or in 2007?
If so, what kind of shape is it in.
Played three times last year and I am taking a group of 8 to Phoenix in April and what to put it on our play list.
Thanks,
JD

[Jonathan Cummings]

I know this will piss people off but AS may well be the very best architectural design of all from the RGD folks.  From a variation standpoint it beats all including PD, Barnbougle and   Stonewall.  AS's drive and approach values, green complex interest, rhythm, cohesiveness and theme are all near perfect.

I'm no expert but I have played nearly 1000 courses around the world and 90% of Tommy's layouts - I respect AS as much as any of the others.

We all love to play well conditioned courses.  AS has suffered in this area.  Close you eyes to this category and AS has few modern equals.

JC

[Tom_Doak]

Jon:  That's an interesting point of view which I would love to understand.

Jim:  A golf writer acquaintance of mine went up to play there last week.  He didn't like the fact that they don't overseed, said the customer service was as poor as ever, and recounted innumberable "grooming" problems (unraked traps, etc.) ... but at least there's good grass cover now, and he didn't complain about the tees, fairways or greens.

[CHrisB]

A friend and I played Apache Stronghold in late November on a cold and breezy day.

Because it was in the middle of the week and there were only a few people on the tee sheet, the pro essentially tried to shut down the course. At first he said the superintendent instructed him to do it, and when we asked to speak to the GM he said she was too busy talking on the phone. Of course we waited for her to finish her call, informed her that we had paid for the lodging/golf in advance, had come all the way from TX, etc. and she allowed us to play.

We were the only 2 people on the course the entire day (which in itself was a great experience!).

The course itself was surprisingly wet, which was actually a good thing because the wind effectively narrowed the landing areas quite a bit. The turf was in pretty good shape and the green speeds were decent, but there were a couple of greens (#8, #10) that were pretty spotty. Overall, though, it was well worth what we spent to play there.

[Bill_McBride]

Chris, if there is good grass cover, that's an improvement and it's a great place to play.  How fast were the greens running?

It's a surprisingly easy walk if you just dive off the fronts of the tees and don't follow the cart paths.  It wouldn't be possible to use a Sun Mountain speed cart though.

[CHrisB]

Bill,
The greens were fairly quick but not so much that putts would get away from you. A nice speed for making a ton of putts as long as you could get the reads right (which wasn't easy).

I agree--a surprisingly easy walk and a pleasant one at that.

[Thomas_Brown]

I agree w/ Jonathan but will hedge and call PD & AS even.  The only other RGD I've seen is the first course at Stonewall.

I would have guessed Jonathan might have gone w/ the New Zealand RGD courses.

By my eyes, Doak took more risks at AS in the design.
To me, the range is wider at AS - the holes that I enjoyed were really spectacular(e.g. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, 17).  And the AS ones I didn't fully buy were lesser than anything at PD.  And to be a Doak contrarian, I did think the AS Redan is in the bottom half of such efforts compared to the Raynor/Mac. versions I've played.  #17 at AS is my favorite RGD par 3 so far.

I did stop for a hamburger at AS between rounds and that was a regrettable mistake.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys please help me out here - I've played the place no less than three times -- and while I do respect the wherewithal to turn around the place -- the bar for SERIOUS improvement is not whether or not grass is growing. I guess when one hits rock botton -- any movement is then deemed to be seen as a incredible turn around.

That kind of "spin control" is really low -- too low in my mind.

I too enjoy what AS provides but until it can reach a steady and consistent level for more than a limited period than in my mind the course is still languishing.

I used to give passes to courses with the following statements, "Great layout but ..."

No more.

Conditioning is not a primary consideration for course evaluation but it cannot be dismissed as nothing more than window dressing.

The bar for AS is to achieve consistent and day-to-day maintenance that brings to life the solid design aspects the course has. If and when that happens the rest of its reputation will garner the appropriate fanfare from my corner.

End of story.

[Kyle Harris]

Jon:  That's an interesting point of view which I would love to understand.

Jim:  A golf writer acquaintance of mine went up to play there last week.  He didn't like the fact that they don't overseed, said the customer service was as poor as ever, and recounted innumberable "grooming" problems (unraked traps, etc.) ... but at least there's good grass cover now, and he didn't complain about the tees, fairways or greens.

Sounds like heaven, Tom.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

Sounds like heaven?  Didn't you read Matt Ward's post?  

"The bar for AS is to achieve consistent and day-to-day maintenance that brings to life the solid design aspects the course has. If and when that happens the rest of its reputation will garner the appropriate fanfare from my corner."

Come on, he's played the course no LESS than three times.  How about no more than?  That's the number we're all waiting breathlessly for, Matt  

It is nothing with out garnering his appropriate fanfare from his corner (is that where he keeps his stool and duncecap?) That's the "End Of Story."  

[Matt_Ward]

It's so nice for certain people who bark from the cheap deep left field seats, and mind you, who who have never played the course, to so quickly and ignorantly jump in and proclaim how others who have played the course on repeated visits over a prolonged period of time can be in serious error.

I am a fan of the design of AS and have said so -- however --I've taken the time and effort to give it the widest latitude in terms of getting itself together on all fronts. That has not happened in a consistent fashion from what I see. Just because the course bears the name of Tom Doak doesn't mean it gets additional brownie points. AS is indeed a solid design -- but the integration of the turf and the design elements needs to happen on a much more consistent basis.

If and when that happens the resulting fanfare will indeed elevate the course accordingly.

It's no different than what happened at Bethpage Black and Harding Park until major corrective actions took place with each of these layouts.

[wsmorrison]

I happen to be sitting in an ideal seat to witness your pompous nature.  It doesn't matter if I never played golf a day in my life.  I still would recognize that you cannot enter a discussion without proclaiming the number of rounds you've played as if that entitles you to expert credentials.  Who cares if you played the course no less than three times or no less than three hundred?  There is no a priori reason your opinion is more valuable than anyone else that's played there.  Stop self-promoting and give us some insights on the course and not your belt notches.

Most of your posts of late are how everyone on this website worships at the alter of the favorite sons while only you see through the hype and get the big picture and appreciate the work of other lesser known talents.  We get it, Matt.  You think highly of yourself and lowly of most others.  No need to keep shoving it down our throats.  Many of us do not have the luxury or time to travel as much as you do.  It is not an artifact of worshiping a few architects as much as managing limited time and resources.  You constantly make that misjudgment.  If you could see past most of your generalizations, you would see they aren't that accurate but a convenient way of putting people down and building yourself up.  

Frankly, I truly believe Matt has a lot to offer as regards a discussion on architecture.  The maintenance is also important but this is a golf architecture website.  Is it just money that is needed to set up a successful maintenance program at AS or is there something inherently wrong with the site and/or construction?  

Now back to this interesting thread.  I will refrain from anymore Matt Ward bashing.  Sorry about that--I needed my quarterly fix.  I welcome Jonathan's further reasoning and also more about your thoughts on the architecture as well, Matt.  Its better than hearing your thoughts about you.  

[Matt_Ward]

When one speaks about pompous -- you should take a good look in the mirror. The poster child is indeed alive and well.

You bark about people who have played courses and your ignorance rings louder than the Liberty Bell ever could.

I listed my rounds played to demonstrate my conclusions did not come from only one visit to AS. Those who make one visit might see the course in only one manner as opposed to those with multiple visits. Greater understandings can often come from multiple plays. That's a truism in course understanding.

I didn't list the total number of rounds to receive some badge of honor, but to demonstrate that the conclusions I reached come from being very fair to what I have personally seen when present at the site.

Yes, this site is about honoring a certain elite few -- it often fails to point out othes who are doing a remarkable job -- see the info I presented on Vista Verde by Ken Kavanaugh. Of course, how would you know - you're too busy adding ignorant retorts that only itemize your limited understanding of what is happening in the field of golf course design today. Hey if ignorance floats your boat then by all means swim in that ocean.

I've opined on any number of the design points concerning AS. It's all part of past threads. The nature of what Doak did is indeed at a very high level -- but when turf issues are in need of clear remediation -- the bar should be a good bit more than just a minor correction.

AS also has management issues that speak of deeper elements that need to be rectified. In addition, being located in Globe does take away from the kind of fanfare it can build if it was located just a tad closer to the Valley of the Sun area.



 

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

I write this as the electronic version of a friend (given we have never met).  You and I have battled from time to time for sure on different issues, but one thing I have always kept as sacred is you do know your stuff.  Your experience level is unparalleled and your ways of explaining things are pretty damn good too.  I trust your opinions of golf courses damn near absolutely; something I would say about precious few others in here.

BUT....

the proper answer to Wayne by you should have been:


Touche.  Let's get back to talking about the course.


Because while Wayne's words were harsh, I also think his main point was correct.  You do seem to have the crusade going on that he mentions, and you do seem to like to point out your superior experience level whenever possible.

And to me that detracts from your otherwise damn fine takes on things.

Take this or leave it.  But this is my honest opinion.

Now back to AS.  I still wonder if it's worth the trip out there for one who's joy in all of this is 99% playing the game, 1% seeing fine "architecture."  Are the conditions finally back up to snuff such that playing the game one doesn't focus constantly on THAT?

TH

[Jay Flemma]

I'm glad to see that the course is recovering bit by bit.  I agree with Jonathan, I think it is a wonderful collection of great template holes, shows great use of the arroyos, and is a great price.

I played it in dormant conditions back in Jan of '06.  One side was OK, the other was rugged, but I also hear its slowly improving bit by bit.

For the reasonable price they charge, its a great course...you just have to know you'll be playing dormant-like conditions.  You'll get alot of interesting design features to check out.

Look, Matt hit it on the head.  The conditions do fluctuate from marginal to questionable...meaning its not the place you bunker down for three days, but play as a change of pace from the other courses.  He is exactly right that conditioning is  not an end all be all factor like the casino courses in upstate NY care to believe, but it also cannot be dismissed entirely.  AS keeps treading a fine line with the conditioning trying to keep minimum competence...happily they have not drifted below that for some time.

We must do what we can to preserve this golf course no mkatter what.  Jonathan is right, the design here is one of Doak's strongest designs.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:  brass tacks.  Say one has one chance to go to Phoenix area, may not go back for several years if ever.  But one's take on things is as I said in the post to Matt - 99% playing the game, 1% studying fine architecture.

You have two golf days max - three nights.  Ie arrive on a Fri night, leave on a Sunday night.

Is it worth devoting 1 or 1.5 days to Apache Stronghold, the way things are as you saw them, or even a bit improved as the reports are now?

[cary lichtenstein]

I've played AS once and it was the worst conditioned golf course on the planet, I mean no grass on fairways 1 and 2, and batches of grass in the other fairways. What I mean by patches, is you could lift your ball and carry or kick it 10 to 20 yards and hit it off long grass.

Whatever was there architecturally was obscured by the conditioning.

The accommodations were Motel 6 like and the buffet was like eating 100% Transfats.

We went took 3 hours to get there from Payson and 2 hours to get to Scottsdale and I had to listen to my wife bitch...................

I would only return if it were in pristine condition

What I don't get is all this constant AS worshipping. What is that about?

If you want to talk about Doak's work, PD and Ballyneal are wonderful.

[Tom Huckaby]

Cary - thanks for the frank take.  So I assume you'd advise my hypothetical golfer to wait until AS gets more playable conditions....

[wsmorrison]

What are the natures of the template holes, Jay?

Matt,

Here are some synonyms for opine--just in case you thought that the only word to convey a meaning:

suggest
say
declare
observe
comment
remark
think
believe
consider
maintain
imagine
reckon
guess
assume
presume
suppose

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary - thanks for the frank take.  So I assume you'd advise my hypothetical golfer to wait until AS gets more playable conditions....

Correct

[Tom Huckaby]

Huckster

I have never played AS, but the next time I make it to Phoenix I will make every effort I can to see this course even if I only get one game while there.  Nothing I have heard about the conditioning has convinced me I should give AS a miss.  

Ciao

Sean:  now I know you and I have discussed many times the value of "value" - ie getting bang for one's buck - and it would certainly appear that AS with it's rock-bottom prices has that in spades.  So I too would be tempted if only for that.

BUT... remember where it is geographically.  It's a long drive out there....

So... a more precious commodity than money to me is time.  Given the state of conditions, is it worth taking the TIME for, in my scenario?  Remember too that in so doing you're giving up the chance to play potentially TWO other fantastic courses with zero condition issues....

This makes me not so sure.  I am intrigued as hell by the course... I'm just not sure that under the conditions reported it is worth the time.

Cary's words are powerful to me....

They don't resonate with you?

[Mark Pearce]

It's in Globe?  Stayed there 20 months ago on a scenic route from Grand Canyon to Phoenix.  There's not much to do in Globe, it has to be said.  I'm not surprised that course there isn't in the peak of condition - it'll fit the town.

[John Kavanaugh]

Did Apache Stronghold make the recent list of most affordable golf by I think Golf Magazine.  

[Jay Flemma]

Wayne...off the top of my head there's a great biarritz, a solid redan and a good punchbowl.

Cary, by any chance were you there before me?  Prior to Jan of 2006?  Or after? I did hear things are getting incrementally better...

Tom, look if I had three rounds in the Greater Phoenix area, I'd probly take it easy on the driving and stay in town, but if I had five rounds, I'd go play it...but the ONLY reason I say that is the conditioning...strictly form a design standpoint, I think AS is better than we-ko-pa cholla and TSN, but the two hour drive and the spartan conditions detract a little.  Personally, I like We-ko-pa the most in the area.  I also have a soft spot for the Pinnacle Course at Troon, Boulders South and Ventana Canyon.

I have not yet played the saguaro.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

I get that.  I'm also not afraid of bad conditions; growing up with munis and still playing them, it's kinda my golf life.  BUT... that also doesn't mean I'm going to seek them out, and devote my one chance in an area to them.  Your father is wise, but some of us don't have a choice in the matter.

And I guess our difference is this:  given how precious time is in my life, I'd put a higher price on the windshield time than you would... and that's ESPECIALLY true when it's my one chance in an area, not sure if I'll ever get back.

Money can be regained; time cannot.

Sadly I don't have nearly enough of both.  But if it is as Cary says, well... I'm gonna spend the time on a course that I'd enjoy playing more.