[JESII]

Huck,

Only semi-serious...I thought it would be entertaining to read our friends definition of "et al" juxtaposed with his (surely) pending reply to why you do not properly understand "et al"...

[wsmorrison]

Did the 18th at Pebble Beach influence many finishing hole designs in the US (either par 4 or par 5), especially in Florida?  Where was the original back tee on the hole?

[David Stamm]

Wayne, if I remember right, Neville and Grant had the tee well to the right  so the tee shot played pretty much right down the fairway. It was also a par 4 then.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck,

Only semi-serious...I thought it would be entertaining to read our friends definition of "et al" juxtaposed with his (surely) pending reply to why you do not properly understand "et al"...

Darn.  I shoulda shown more patience.  We could have skewered him and good.  Oh well, opportunity lost.

 

[JESII]

I don't know that we'll ever "skewer" the big tuna, but it sure is fun to watch him swim up stream...just ask Cirba what size boat would be needed.

[wsmorrison]

Thank you, David.  I had a feeling that the original tee shot would not have carried the coastline.  I didn't know it was a par 4 though.  Interesting.  Do you know who made the change and when?

[Patrick_Mucci]

et al. n. abbreviation for the Latin phrase et alii meaning "and others." This is commonly used in shortening the name of a case, as in "Pat Murgatroyd v. Sally Sherman, et al."

Just like:      Tom Huckaby, et. al.  [/color]

The GREAT HOUDINI LIVES  

[Adam Clayman]

Wayne, I can't be sure or specific, but I believe it was Egan who changed the hole from par 4 to 5.

[Joe Bentham]

I played Pebble last month and hit my drive exactly where Phil did today, and was absolutely baked.  Choices were to aim over the water and cut it or aim OB and hook hit.  I aimed OB and didn't hook it.

It makes the safe rout have a penalty..

Its a par 5 and you should've punched back into play and tried to make a 5.  You didn't have to try and hit a cut or a hook.  Should've played it smarter...

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Stamm,

It was my understanding that # 18 was a par 5 when Egan began his work.

I'm trying to imagine it being a par 4 with the current green being the approximate site of the old green, and the 17th green being in approximately the same position.

Wouldn't that have created an unusual gap in the routing, the distance between # 17 green and # 18 tee if it was a par 4 ?

It seems out of sorts with the other green to tee distances on the golf course, so, like Wayne, I'm interested to know who did it, since Egan didn't.

Are you positive it was once a par 4 ?

[Tom Huckaby]

et al. n. abbreviation for the Latin phrase et alii meaning "and others." This is commonly used in shortening the name of a case, as in "Pat Murgatroyd v. Sally Sherman, et al."

Just like:      Tom Huckaby, et. al.  

The GREAT HOUDINI LIVES  

Indeed he does.  He seems to have allowed a set to include one part in one instance, not include it in another.  That is some fine linguistic magic.

 

[wsmorrison]

According to Geoff Shackelford's "The Golden Age of Golf Design," Chandler Egan wrote of the 18th,

"The tee has been extended oceanward by bridging it over to a nearby rock, thus adding much to its charm.  the new green built on the old location is more closely trapped than the old one and now offers a rather difficult target for anything but a short third."

I guess this tee change was made in 1928, but it doesn't say where the old tee was or whether it was a par 4 prior to the move.

[mike_malone]

    The green seems  to be too close to  the shore line. This necessitates a huge expense to artifically keep the water back.  It seems that waves land on the green quite often, not just in 100 year storms. Is this an amateur  design mistake ?

[PThomas]

leave the trees alone

[Pete Lavallee]

It is my understanding that Fowler changed the 18th from a mid length par 4 to a par 5 hole.

[David Stamm]

It is my understanding that Fowler changed the 18th from a mid length par 4 to a par 5 hole.

Pete is correct. Fowler is the one that is responsible for the hole presently being a par 5. Egan did rework the green complex, but seven years prior, Fowler moved the tee to left and back, changing the hole from a 380 yd par 4 where the ocean did not come into play, to the present par 5.

[TEPaul]

Water all along one side and a couple of trees in the middle of the fairway!?

It seems to be a Monterrey Peninsula kind of thing and it's way too traditional on Cypress's 17th and Pebble's 18th to do anything about it now.  

[TEPaul]

And I was amazed how blocked out Phil's second shot seemed to be. It looked like he had to hit a pretty big fade out over the water. Oh sorry, I mean he had to hit a pretty big draw out over the water.  

[James Bennett]

And I was amazed how blocked out Phil's second shot seemed to be. It looked like he had to hit a pretty big fade out over the water. Oh sorry, I mean he had to hit a pretty big draw out over the water.  

Tom

you reckon left-handed fade vs right-handed fade  is confusing?  You should come 'down under' and play golf in the southern hemisphere!  

You probably know of that 'corolois' effect, the one which makes water in the hand basin go down the plug hole in a clockwise direction in the southern hemisphere and in an anti-clockwise direction in the northern hemisphere.  Well, it affects the golf ball as well.  Here in Australia, a right-hander's fade goes to the left, and a right-handers draw goes to the right.  Unbelievable huh.

If you get the chance, you should go to one of the Singapore golf courses.  They have a hole which plays across the equator.  The tee shot travels the first 100 yards in the southern hemisphere, and then shifts into the northern hemisphere.  It is pretty cool to watch a ball correct itself in mid-flight, going from 'fade' to 'draw'.  I think that is the easiest hole on the course.  Nearly everyone hits the fairway.  The straight-ball hitters have some problems though.


I really wish I had the patience to save this post till April 1.  It would have been funnier then.  

James B

[David Stamm]

James, no worries about saving it. I'm still laughing my ass off!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

David & Pete,

Was 17 a different hole prior to Fowler changing # 18 ?

At 380, 150 shorter than its current length the walk from # 17 green would be substantial, and a real disconnect if the 17th green was in its current location.

Is it possible that the 17th was realigned toward the point when # 18 was converted to a par 5 ?

[David Stamm]

Patrick, the hole played at 182 yds. when work on the 18th began. He placed a new tee behind the road and extended the hole to 225yds. Egan did in fact try to build a new tee for 18 on the rocks behind the present tee and slightly to the right. In fact in aerials today, if you look behind the 17th green, you can see flattish looking rock outcroppings. In 1928 Egan experimented with a tee there, but it did not last the winter. Perhaps this is another reason Morse did not allow Mackenzie to build the tee on 18 at Cypress Point Club. The 17th green was also dramatically changed. I believe the original tee for 18 was somewhere where the stands are placed for tournaments for the 17th. I have to make a correction to a previous statement I made as well. Fowler ENVISIONED the 18th being a par 5 before Egan.  Fowler actually completed the work in 1921. So yes, he did the work seven years before Egan AND had the idea before him, but Egan also tried to extend the tee even further with the experiment that I mentioned. He also reworked the green there to make it more difficult so only a precise third shot would get close to some of the pin locations.

My question would be, if he redid the green with what he had in mind on extending the tee even further than what Fowler did, does it change the strategy for the green because that tee couldn't be used?

[BCrosby]

David - I don't understand what you are trying to say here:

"I have to make a correction to a previous statement I made as well. Fowler ENVISIONED the 18th being a par 5 before Egan.  Fowler actually completed the work in 1921. So yes, he did the work seven years before Egan AND had the idea before him, but Egan also tried to extend the tee even further with the experiment that I mentioned."

If Fowler changed the 18th before Egan got involved, why is it important when Fowler envisioned the change?

Bob

[David Stamm]

Sorry, Bob. Bad choice of words I guess. I was trying to convey that Fowler envisioned the extension of the 18th before (obviously  ) Egan although he (Egan) tried to move the tee further back still. It had been thought for a long time from my research that many thought Egan extended the tee as we see it today and it was his idea all along. Sorry for the confusion, it's been a long day for me.

[David Stamm]

Bump for Patrick's inquiries.

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