[Doug Wright]

I know Doug wasn't asking about Vista Verde but just to pass along a general FYI - it is now open Thurs-Sun at a rate of $135. They are still working the infrastructure build out and no clubhouse yet.

Info and reservations through the Tonto Verde Golf shop @ (480) 471-2710


Tom

Tom that is interesting. VV is a really good course, with a lot of width and variety, excellent use of the topography (including the washes that run through the property) and I'd recommend it highly. Any info on its condition at this time? If I get back to the area I'd readily return to play it.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Vista Verde was listed for discounted tee times at www.golfnow.com last year but isn't at the moment. For $135 it's lower than most quality courses in Scottsdale.

Wigwam Gold is a treat to play and is easily walkable.

How about TPC Champions?

[Doug Wright]

Vista Verde was listed for discounted tee times at www.golfnow.com last year but isn't at the moment. For $135 it's lower than most quality courses in Scottsdale.

Wigwam Gold is a treat to play and is easily walkable.

How about TPC Champions?

Steve,

I looked at TPC Champions and I hear it's much improved but I think I could get there and play it sometime when the price is quite a lot lower.

[Tom Yost]

Doug,

Looks like you will have to scratch Longbow from consideration. I just got an email indicating they are hosting a Gateway Tour Winter Series event on Mon-Wed next week (Jan 21/23).

I've been looking to set something up at the TPC Champions and confirmed by phone earlier this week that they do offer a walking rate of $43.50 (+tax) - a very good value!!

Tom

[J_ Crisham]

TPC-Champions is probably the best value in Scottsdale-plus its easy to walk. Eagle Mountain was nice but pricey and I thought you are required to ride plus its a drive.

[Andy Troeger]

Doug,
You've played most of the ones I've played and enjoyed. Las Sendas out in Mesa is nice as well, although no great steal most likely pricewise. A friend did not recommend Trilogy at Vistancia to me, while not an official GCA'er I trust his recommendations.

[Jesse Jones]

My best bets..

VV
--
Sagauro--I've been lucky enough to only play it F&F..
--
TSN

I'll be down in the valley from 3/9 to 3/20.
Anyone looking for a game hit me with an IM..

[Tom Yost]

I played Trilogy @ Vistancia this summer and though it was just OK.  They use a lot of native grasses outside the turf areas and it gives a very attractive look, but if you hit it in there, say bye-bye to your ball.

Another possibility is The Golf Club of Estrella. This is a Nicklaus Jr. course, way out in the SW area of town and part of a real estate development, but only about 1/2 built out so many of the holes are still surrounded by native desert.  It kept my interest much more than the Trilogy.  And, if you are a "savvy shopper" (as I am) they are apparently needing some business and running a special that includes "unlimited" golf (space-available), lunch, AND 1 dozen ProV1 golf balls for $99 weekdays/ $109 weekends (good thru 1/31).  

Tom

[Tony Petersen]

Vista Verde had been closed since May (?) of last year as they awaited permit approval & began construction on the communities infrastructure. Nice to hear that it's back on the market, as it really is a fun, tough design with some amazing green surrounds, contours & bunkering. Not to be shy, but the first time I played it I thought I hit the ball well on the first couple of holes and was +4 thru 2 If you end up on the wrong side of the pins (and greens), you're seriously looking at a good double... Seriously. I was really impressed with the course...

Other good publics that have yet to be mentioned:

Vistal (waaaaay under the radar): It may have been the "first time fun factor" but I really enjoyed the round I played there a month back. Fun layout, "desert" links, solid bunkering and good movement in the greens. Not sure if anyone else has made the drive (base of S. Mountain) and would like to hear some other opinions...

Pretty much everything else has been mentioned... unless you want a taste of Scottsdale Resort Golf, then head over to Starfire Golf Club for 6000 yards of fun

[Tony Petersen]

Here's a link to a story about Vista Verde... Let us wax poetic

http://tinyurl.com/y5emk6

[Greg Murphy]

Last time I was in the area I played Dinosaur Mountain, Vista Verde, We-Ko-Pa Cholla and Eagle Mountain. On previous visits I had played a few others including Talking Stick North, Grayhawk Raptor, SunRidge Canyon, the Raven at South Mountain, the two at Anthem and probably a couple others. Apache Stronghold is too far away to include in this group.

I'm really curious about Vista Verde. I have to go back there because it really didn't do anything for me. Perhaps I was expecting too much from the cheerleading I'd read here.

I was disappointed in Dinosaur Mountain. It seemed like a bit of a relic from the 80's(?) with lots of superfluous containment mounding, etc. I don't think it was built all at once or by the same people and it just doesn't have a coherent feel to it. It does have a couple of visually stunning holes, but of the courses I listed above it would be probably the last one I'd return to. I'm not saying it's bad golf, just that I'd recommend any of the others before Dinosaur Canyon.

Cholla was probably the most enjoyable of the bunch. I was expecting quite a bit and it delivered. Funny thing is, I played outside of peak season and our fee at Cholla was actually less than at Vista Verde. Vista Verde might've actually been the most expensive course I played, at that time.

I thought Talking Stick was pretty special when I played it. Matt's comment about less is less is kind of funny, there's nothing there to knock your socks off, but I'm a bit of a sucker for undulating sites, and as a contrast, Talking Stick has to be the nicest, FLAT course I've ever played. I really liked how the bunkers seemed to be gouged to fall below the level of the fairway. I've always wondered how they designed the drainage there.

Talking Stick is also the only course of all these that I walked and that may be one of the reasons I have such fond memories of the time spent there. Next time I play Vista Verde, I'll walk and maybe I'll appreciate it more.

[Doug Wright]

Another possibility is The Golf Club of Estrella. This is a Nicklaus Jr. course, way out in the SW area of town and part of a real estate development, but only about 1/2 built out so many of the holes are still surrounded by native desert.  It kept my interest much more than the Trilogy.  And, if you are a "savvy shopper" (as I am) they are apparently needing some business and running a special that includes "unlimited" golf (space-available), lunch, AND 1 dozen ProV1 golf balls for $99 weekdays/ $109 weekends (good thru 1/31).  

Tom

Tom, that's quite a deal there at Estrella--are they having conditioning issues or something? There was a similar deal at Verrado last year and it was just fine. I may have to check this course out. Thanks for the heads up.

[Tom Yost]

Another possibility is The Golf Club of Estrella. This is a Nicklaus Jr. course, way out in the SW area of town and part of a real estate development, but only about 1/2 built out so many of the holes are still surrounded by native desert.  It kept my interest much more than the Trilogy.  And, if you are a "savvy shopper" (as I am) they are apparently needing some business and running a special that includes "unlimited" golf (space-available), lunch, AND 1 dozen ProV1 golf balls for $99 weekdays/ $109 weekends (good thru 1/31).  

Tom

Tom, that's quite a deal there at Estrella--are they having conditioning issues or something? There was a similar deal at Verrado last year and it was just fine. I may have to check this course out. Thanks for the heads up.

I played it in Sept before the overseed and conditions were near perfect then - don't know about now, but unless something went seriously wrong, I can't imagine how conditions could be a problem.  

I think economics are becoming a factor - supply is greater than demand.  I'm seeing a lot of special offers - today's paper has the Raven @ Verrado for $89 weekend/$69 weekday.  Right before Christmas, I got an email from Troon North offering a Saturday round with lunch for $90. I thought this was remarkable because their lowest rate in the dead of the summer was $90.

Tom

[Steve Sayre]

I played the Raven at Verrado last Sunday and I thought the design was just OK.  The conditioning was excellent.  The surrounding community was eeriely quiet.  In another sign of the impending apocalypse, the music being piped to speakers adjacent to the practice tees was audible as you warm-up.  I hope this is not a trend.

[ward peyronnin]

I am amazed that there are not more than three courses in the p/s area worthy of mention. I am heading out in Feb and am most interested in finding a Forrest Richardson( who post here on site)  work to experience and there must be others worthy. Come on guys.

[Ryan Farrow]

Last time I was in the area I played Dinosaur Mountain, Vista Verde, We-Ko-Pa Cholla and Eagle Mountain. On previous visits I had played a few others including Talking Stick North, Grayhawk Raptor, SunRidge Canyon, the Raven at South Mountain, the two at Anthem and probably a couple others. Apache Stronghold is too far away to include in this group.

I'm really curious about Vista Verde. I have to go back there because it really didn't do anything for me. Perhaps I was expecting too much from the cheerleading I'd read here.

I was disappointed in Dinosaur Mountain. It seemed like a bit of a relic from the 80's(?) with lots of superfluous containment mounding, etc. I don't think it was built all at once or by the same people and it just doesn't have a coherent feel to it. It does have a couple of visually stunning holes, but of the courses I listed above it would be probably the last one I'd return to. I'm not saying it's bad golf, just that I'd recommend any of the others before Dinosaur Canyon.

Cholla was probably the most enjoyable of the bunch. I was expecting quite a bit and it delivered. Funny thing is, I played outside of peak season and our fee at Cholla was actually less than at Vista Verde. Vista Verde might've actually been the most expensive course I played, at that time.

I thought Talking Stick was pretty special when I played it. Matt's comment about less is less is kind of funny, there's nothing there to knock your socks off, but I'm a bit of a sucker for undulating sites, and as a contrast, Talking Stick has to be the nicest, FLAT course I've ever played. I really liked how the bunkers seemed to be gouged to fall below the level of the fairway. I've always wondered how they designed the drainage there.

Talking Stick is also the only course of all these that I walked and that may be one of the reasons I have such fond memories of the time spent there. Next time I play Vista Verde, I'll walk and maybe I'll appreciate it more.

Greg, there were definitely some things that turned me off about Vista Verde but it is one of the better courses in the area, but its kind of a hike for me in south Tempe. Talking Stick North is really special, its pretty hard to describe, by no means perfect but I have yet to play anything better in Scottsdale.

[Andy Troeger]

Read my old posts on this thread just now. I've played Saguaro since posting and would place that one ahead of Vista Verde as my favorite public in the area. Gold Canyon, SunRidge Canyon, and Las Sendas would round out my top five publics played in that order.

Papago, Pointe Hilton at Lookout Mountain, TSN, Estrella Mountain Ranch, TPC Desert prior to the renovation, and Troon North Pinnacle are all nice enough as well, I haven't really played anything down there I thought was bad...just pricey in some cases.

[Doug Wright]

I am amazed that there are not more than three courses in the p/s area worthy of mention. I am heading out in Feb and am most interested in finding a Forrest Richardson( who post here on site)  work to experience and there must be others worthy. Come on guys.

Ward,

If you'll tell me about Ireland I'll tell you about Phoenix...

[Jason Topp]

Vistal (waaaaay under the radar): It may have been the "first time fun factor" but I really enjoyed the round I played there a month back. Fun layout, "desert" links, solid bunkering and good movement in the greens. Not sure if anyone else has made the drive (base of S. Mountain) and would like to hear some other opinions...

I strongly agree and have posted reviews in the past.  I really like the course particularly when you factor in:

1.  Cost
2.  Convenience to the airport; and
3.  At a lower elevation so you can get a couple of extra degrees of temperature on a winter day


Here is the review I posted shortly after my trip last year:

Vistal  (Doak 4)

Vistal packs a lot of interest in a very tight land area.  Much of that interest is created by very penal fairway bunkers which often impose a full stroke penalty due to the need to pitch out.  Thus, off the tee, one is constantly calculating his ability to place the ball where he wants, and weighing that option against the possibility of a 175-200 yard approach if he is too conservative off the tee.  

The best holes on the course are the 5th through the 9th, which play in all directions against the side of the mountain.  The course presents some truly unique challenges on other holes, ranging from a tree in front of the green on the par five first (sounds goofy, but I think it works), greens that favor shots of all shapes, including aerial, right to left, left to right and run up, a wonderful reverse redan green on a downhill par four (16) and a horseshoe (or tractor seat) green on the par five 17th.

Other positives about the course include (1) it is easily walkable, (2) the service is outstanding, without the butt-kissing or arrogant flavor so common at CCFAD’s and (3) it seems to be a course frequented by a lot of good local players based on my impression of the crowd on two separate visits spaced by a couple of years.  Unlike most courses, here the 7100 yard tees get as much use as the other options.  Definitely consider Vistal if you are looking for an affordable option in Phoenix.

Course website

http://www.vistalgolfclub.com/index.htm
 

[Doug Wright]

Tony/Jason,

Interesting comments about Vistal. It clearly is under the radar as you say--I've had several trips to the area and it never was on my list. It will be now.

FYI here is a thread on Vistal from last year:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27879;start=msg533300#msg533300

Here's another link I came across re Phoenix golf:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27675;start=msg527821#msg527821

I'm playing Wigwam Gold and The Golf Club of Estrella this trip. Thanks to Bill McBride and Tom Yost, respectively, for the tips on these courses (they certainly are great values at the moment), and I'll report back on them when I can.  

[Matt_Ward]

I give my vote to Vista Verde for both price and quality of the layout. Unfortunately, too much of this site is a "follow the preferred types" who design courses.

I said this previously Vista Verde by Ken Kavanaugh will grab your attention. Plenty of width as others have mentioned and there's plenty of unique contours in and around the greens.

One can only hope the housing construction will not impact what is already there.

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