[Patrick_Mucci]

In 1964-66, I can recall, like TN, putting a ball in the bunker and trying to get out.  On my first swing I reached the green, only to have the ball roll back into the bunker.  But now, there was a bigger problem.  Due to the conical shape of the bunker, balls went to the lowest point, which was where your footprints and excavation from the previous shot were.

Let the thrashing begin.... until you figured out to hit it backwards, toward the tee.

Patrick (and Tommy)

If you putted into the bunker from the green, why didn't you take an unplayable lie and replay the putt as your 4th shot?  (I assume you putted your second into the bunker).  I can understand why in match-play you might try to take on the DA, but in stroke-play?

James,

Neither of us putted from the green to the bunker.
We hit the green with our approach shots and went on to one or two putt the hole for birdie or par.

We then put (placed-threw) a ball into the bunker to get a sense of what it would be like to end up in that dire location.

My first shot out landed on the front of the green and spun back into the bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

The top of that bunker was built up such that balls and surface water wouldn't run back into it.

Looking at the face and top of the bunker, from behind the bunker, it was similar to the look one would see if you placed a huge, old World War I helmet on the top.

It went from the green and front of the green sloping into the bunker to a crowned effect between the bunker and the green and then they let the buffer of rough grow.

It caused a dramatically different effect in play, for balls hit just short or just on the green, and, it made getting out, and staying out easier.

[JESII]

Pat,

Are you suggesting that a ball actually hit into the bunker (not placed) can be realistically played out of it onto the green? On your "Barrel" thread you say your eyes are not so good, I wonder if it's actually your mind that's not so good and you just forget?

[Paul_Turner]

The first pic that Wayne posted, without DA, was first published in the Simon Carr article in 1915  (bunkered as Colt planned).  

The second pic, from the tee, is from Colt's photo book that Crump sent to him and is at the USGA library (or it was...it had disappeared/moved when I was last there!)

Mark's photo is great.  Shows the bunkers at a state somewhere in between those very first pics and now (in terms of sand face).  More grass, less sand, over time, but still lots of sand exposed in the 20s and not grassed down.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Are you suggesting that a ball actually hit into the bunker (not placed) can be realistically played out of it onto the green?

It could when I was last in there and extracated myself onto the green.

As for others, I can't speak for them

On your "Barrel" thread you say your eyes are not so good, I wonder if it's actually your mind that's not so good and you just forget ?

My wife says that I have the most incredible "selective" memory she's ever encountered.  And, on this topic, it's quite accurate.

The chances of getting out of the bunker depend upon the lie and one's ability to chop wood correctly.

[JESII]

If it's going to happen, it better happen the first time...


In the Crump this year I hit it over the green to a back center pin, let me tell you, that's no bargain...6 times on that little hole will leave a sour taste.

[PThomas]

Here's a photo that shows exactly what you are talking about.  Certainly the right side was much higher than today and obscured the right side of the green.  They sure did remove a lot of fill.

AMAZING how "treeless" it looked back then..

..so I'm guessing PV played much harder back then due to the lack of shelter from the wind from the near forest that is there now?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

James,
When I got to the tee on the 10th, I asked my caddie, an old-timer at the Valley, what the distance was to the Asshole. He wasn't exactly the type of caddie I would say had the greatest sense of humor, more serious then the others but he really did know his stuff.

From the tees we were playing, he handed me a 7 iron and told me to swing away. Now mind you that I had asked him the distance and he just handed me the club he thought I should hit to the pin, which was playing back right, directly over the famed orfice. "No, what's the distance to the asshole?" I replied, and he looked at me sort of weird and said, "7 iron." That's when I told him that I didn't come here to put it on the green and putt for birdie, I came here to take on the Asshole. He got pretty upset and reacted like, Are you crazy? and then finally relented and handed me the 8 iron which I put about four yards short but right on line.

The rest of the caddies pretty much were laughing, as were my playing partners and they rewarded me by putting my ball into the Asshole and letting me hit out of it, which I fould to be a piece of cake! Mayor Ott even signed my Pine Valley book, To Tommy Naccarato, the only person who actually played for the DAH!

I just missed putting it for my three. Well sort of! (when you consider that some rules we're broken by droping the ball into the bunker for me!)

[TEPaul]

Actually, the entire evolution of that hole is interesting.

I think that hole surely is a Colt design (I think the other sure thing Colt PV hole designs not including the green surfaces and contours are #5, #9, #10 and #11).

On Colt's hole drawing of that green which is very much like his 10th green design on his whole course drawing that we bought on EBay this hole has an interesting sort of fairway sloping up to the green. You can see how it was planted and the vestiges of it in that photo that shows the first iteration of the DA.

There was no DA or bunker on the Colt drawing in that area, it was drawn as a fairway area sloping up to the green.

[James Bennett]

Tommy

great story.  Redanman posted the picture of you extricating the ball from the DA when this was discussed perhaps 6 months ago.  I believe you.

Patrick

my apologies.  I (obviously) thought you inferred you had 'putted' into the DA rather than 'put' the ball in the DA by hand.  Yes, I did the latter as well, and failed miserably at extricating it. Unlike Tommy.  Putting (Putt) and putting (put) can be very tricky.

The DA remains the smallest internal out-of-bounds in golf.

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Thomas,

Wind isn't usually much of a factor at PV.

But, I too like the treeless version.

And, if the wind did come up, you'd feel it.

JES II,

If you don't get it out the first time, hitting back toward the tee may be the only option.

Agreed about going long, that's frightening.

[Paul_Turner]

I recognise Mark's pic now, it's from Geo Thomas's book  "Golf Architecture in America" 1927.  There's also photo of the hole in a very similar state, with the DA in it: Hunter's "The Links" one year earlier in 1926.

The hole looks just about ideal in these photos.

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