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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« on: September 24, 2002, 04:58:52 PM »
Wayne and Tom -

I was curious if you're recent foray to Brookline and Marion yielding anything of note re: Flynn's contribution to TCC and KC. While I am sure it did, I was curious if you might give us a brief report, to the extent time permits.

Or should I/do I have to wait for the book?   ;D

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2002, 06:06:13 PM »
SPDB:

Sure, the Flynn trip was wonderful. It was even a little Ross mixed with the Flynn trip in that we played Charles River on Sat. morning with Ed Baker and Dave Miller!

I'd certainly never been there and was completely stunned by Charles River by all that it is but most particularly because it was not much at all like most of the Ross courses I've known and I've known quite a few of them.

I thought a lot about Tom MacWood during that round as Ross, without question, about maxed out the use of every "natural feature" the site had and it has about ten zillion of them!

But the greens! OhmyGod, I'd definitely never seen any Ross greens quite like that! Maybe it's sort of a New England or Mass thing but they were something else! Both in the incredible variety of green end uses and the same with the green surfaces! The thing I found most interesting is a number of them had about the most typical and interesting "Maxwell Rolls" and "poofs" I've seen.

So I'm truly wondering if Perry stopped by Charles River early on in his career and picked up some inspiration and ideas for what he later became famous for! But more in detail about Charles River later! Who knows, maybe Donald borrowed inspiration from Perry at Charles River!

The Country Club was fascinating and overall little like I've ever seen before either. Obviously extremely old in it's architecture and its evolution in getting to what is now the main 18 holes (other than what Flynn built which was nine additional holes to create a course of 27 in 1926-7).

The fascinating thing though is the way Flynn intermingled his additional nine holes in 1927 (sometimes known as the Primrose nine) with the back nine of the final evolutionary phase of the original golf course (back nine now known as the Squirrel).

The way he intermingled them into the course that he found there was very interesting and the fact that The Country club seems to have played the main course in that intermingled routing progression for maybe 25 -35 years before basically going back to the original routing progression for very interesting reasons of having holes from Flynn's additional nine taken out of existence for things like more tennis courts and then having Flynn or maybe Cornish get back to 27 by constructing interesting hole pieces and rearrangements!

Let's say figuring out how it all evolved seemed to be something no one was completely familiar with, certainly in how and why it all progressed as it did but I think we're  getting there!

But the whole course (all 27 holes) is stunning too and very different to me. Tee to green it's got all kinds of old fashioned offerings of architecture and variety from the two holes across the old race track to the rocky and quirky front nine and much of the back and with what Flynn so well melded into it with similar character. It was so fascinating from tee to green but then that combines with some very small and simple greens! Not all of them but many of them. Combined with the tee to green unusualness and the small size of the greens it's a fascinating course!

And the bunkering of The Country Club is the greatest in placement and look, many very much up into some dramatic upslopes. Bill Spence, the super of about 20 years also maintains those bunker and the way the surrounds are kept and how they meet the sand in such a natural look which is about as good as I've ever seen. To me they look like what I've come to know as basically Flynn bunkers in look and style. This is somewhat like what Merion once had long ago and maybe should have again or even will someday!

Kittansett was so different from the others and fascinating as could be for reasons I'll get into later. Wayne and I don't really know how to approach the way Kittansett seems to give so much credit for the design of the golf course to Fredrick Hood though. Flynn seems to hardly be considered or mentioned!

Some there say they weren't aware that Flynn was ever there but how could we have these perfectly drawn hole plans from Flynn with all his usual construction instructions on them if he wasn't! We're not talking about anything simple either. All the drawings and feature instructions are very detailed too. And the fact is the course was built almost exactly as per the hole drawings and construction instructions!

If someone thinks Hood wrote Flynn or called him and told him how to draw those hole drawings and put those construction instructions on those hole drawings I'm just not buying it and I hope they come to see the logic in what we have. The way those hole drawings are done and "instructed" is exactly the same as the way Flynn did things on all the other courses he's known to have done. But this is a subject I guess we need to tread on lightly for now!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2002, 06:10:58 PM »
I'll also just mention three holes that were almost world class interesting to me one from each course and for now all par 3s.

Charles River's #11, The Country Club's #7 (reputed to be the oldest original hole still there) and Kittansett's #11. All completely different and all just fantastic!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeremiah_Daly

Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2002, 08:24:43 PM »
I'm a Kittansett member and a student of architecture and am a bit in the dark about this Flynn/Hood issue.  I am only 20 and have grown up playing the course (thousands of times) and have always been told Hood went to GBI, studied courses and came back and designed the course.  He was a founding member and I always wondered when I saw Flynn's name on the Golf Digest rankings with Hood's.  I was also always told it was Hood's only course. Anyways, it seems from your drawings that Flynn indeed was the primary architect and after playing Philadelphia CC last spring I am just now noticing some similarities.
Why does the subject need to be treaded on lightly now? Were people giving you a hard time?

Also, I'd love to know your thoughts on the course.  I am biased but I think it is underrated and world-class...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2002, 04:55:41 AM »
Tom -

I hadn't thought about no. 7 at TCC in years. Yes, one of the great par 3's that gets little mention. Middle/long iron to green with drop-off area on left. Beautiful bunkering built into the green platform. The green itself has two distinct landing areas. Great hole.

I understand why it was never changed.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2002, 08:47:39 AM »
I echo Tom's previous posts.  

Charles River was a pleasant surprise for anyone interested in Ross.  The topography around Boston is wonderful for golf and Charles River has it all over.  Very good time playing golf with Ed Baker and Dave Miller.  Dave BBQs the biggest NY Strip steaks and it was fun to have cocktails and watch Boston College football with the boys and their wives.  

The Country Club is a magnificent place, everything on a grand scale, except the green sizes (not complicated contours except the original 7th).  The rolling hills, rocky outcrops (never heard of pudding stone before), and scenic beauty is a wonder to take in.  Nothing beats lunch on the porch except playing the golf course.  One of the best courses I have ever seen with the best bunkers anywhere; perfectly placed and maintained.  By far the best country club considering all the activities, the topography, and the all buildings' architecture.

I believe, though we will not state without further proof, that as Flynn's 9 hole designs were incorporated into a different routing progression of the original course (not originally a seperate 9 but incorporated into the original 18 with the Clyde 9 as original and the Squirrel 9 including some Flynn holes with some of the original holes played as part of Primrose 9) that either the new 9 holes were designed with the original in mind (bunkers looking similar) or that the original bunkers were redone by Flynn when the new 9 was incorporated in.  We need to study any work on the bunkers and the greens to see if Flynn worked on them.

Ground photos before and after Flynn's work should determine if the number, location, and look of the bunkers (perhaps greens) on the original 18 were done by Flynn or not.  We also think that given the radical redesigns and reroutings of the original holes, that some work may need to have been done to create a unified look, which it certainly has today.  There are great holes all over that course.  

We did a bit of golf archaeology to locate old tees and green sites and learned of some constraints (building tennis courts for instance) that mandated that some holes were lost and others needed to take their place.  Cornish did some of this work and we will talk to him to straighten out these changes.

The course historians and the entire staff at TCC were very helpful and the research continues with their help.  Particularly helpful were Louis Newell and Fred Waterman.  Hopefully we helped them learn a bit more about the course evolution as well.

It is taken for granted by many on this site (Mark Fine, Mayday Malone, etc) that Flynn knows how to rout and design on hilly terrain.  We are learning with studies of Atlantic City CC, Boca Raton North and South, Indian Creek (radical engineering), and now Kittansett (Flynn's drawings for Opa Locka in south Florida show as well) that Flynn was a master designing and building on flat land.  At Kittansett (for the most part as flat as ever seen) he used piles of stone (construction photos showed tons of rocks that needed to be moved) to create mounding and building up bunker forms with the rear edges on cross bunkers many times hiding landing areas between the bunkers and greens.  

The head pro, Steve Demmer, and the course super, Lenny Blodgett (40+ years there) were very helpful.  While we are sensative to the club's notion of a one hit wonder member designing the course, we think the facts when accumulated will say otherwise.  

The greens at Kittansett are all built up to avoid flooding problems, although severe storms have in the past raised flood levels more than 8 feet above ground level,  For the most part they are pretty simple, yet on the all-world long par 3 #11, it is as wild a green as you're likely to see with a large upslope from the lower right to the upper left.  Awesome!  I hope Tom's balky camera worked well enough to see these great holes again.  BTW, if anyone wants to donate pictures of various Flynn courses we could use them and will properly attribute them if used.

We think the hole drawings provide irrefutable evidence that Flynn designed the holes in addition to routing the course.  Hood was a real big deal there and probably oversaw the construction.  Flynn never fought the attribution.  Perhaps it benefitted him as Hood was a member, like many others at Kittansett, of The Country Club and this certainly might have helped him get the job there to build Primrose 9 and other work that he may have done a few years later.  

Ross proposed an 18 hole addition to TCC in 1921 but all the land needed was not acquired, although some was purchased and was used for the Primrose.  Ross also came to Kittansett to consult but his ideas were seemingly not incorporated.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2002, 08:58:39 AM »
SPDB,

Of course you know, by asking you are required to pay retail for the book when it does finally come out!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2002, 09:14:10 AM »
All very interesting stuff.  I must admit to being a little perplexed by your descriptions of the routing of the course members played following completion of Flynn's work, though.

Both of you reference hole(s) that were either built, or were originally routed, by Flynn that had to be scotched because of tennis courts. Does that mean flynn built or planned to build hole(s) abutting the 14th (where current tennis courts and other structures sit)?

I'm really interested in seeing the fruits of your research on this course imparticular, since the evolution to the current state (including Flynn's contribution) seems to be such a patchwork process, with countless twists and turns. It seems that we seldom see courses of this quality that have gone through so many iterations.

While no one doubts the quality of the 7th on the main course, I was curious what hole on the Primrose impressed the two of you the most?

To me, it is definitely the 8th. It is unmistakeable Flynn, particularly the rise up to the plateau with its bunker features inlaid on the hill.

thanks for the update
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2002, 06:45:07 PM »
What about #3 at TCC?  I think that is one of the most uniquely designed holes I have ever seen.  It fits the land with perfection.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

TEPaul

Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2002, 08:39:45 PM »
SPDB:

Good call there--#8 Primrose is a gorgeous looking hole from the tee for just the reasons you gave--extremely beautifully placed bunkering up into that hillside or bank!

btufts:

#3 Clyde certainly is a unique hole too--but I'm not sure whether I would really call it all that designed, although it definitely fits the land to perfection! But that's probably because it just is the land, period!

Matter of fact, #3 Clyde should probably be talked about on here in more detail simply because that drive presentation is one of the most unusual I, for one, have ever seen in American architecture. I doubt many on here would disagree with that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2002, 06:33:23 AM »
Although architectural attribution for Kittansett is basically given to Fredrick Hood, for some reason attribution for the routing is given to William Flynn, at least it is in Cornish & Whitten.

Like so many of Flynn's routings, Kittansett's routing is most interesting indeed. In our opinion Flynn produced some of the most interesting routings ever for a number of reasons. He seemed very adventurous on tough and topographical sites in the variety of hole landforms he used and how he used them and I've always said his routings appear to flow all over the landscape in interesting ways! He certainly took some changes in going very much down and very much up on the mid-bodies of some holes.

In Flynn's primary career inventory era the use of parallelism had gotten to be a no-no in architecture and Flynn's use of subtle and not so subtle triangulation between holes was quite brilliant particularly when you consider a course like Lancaster that has basically six holes side by side behind the clubhouse although they really don't feel like they're side by side when you play them.

It probably is not good news on this board to mention it but Flynn was also an early advocate of using trees to separate and individualize golf holes--and he did write about that. There seems to be many stylistic and architectural evidences of Pine Valley in much of Flynn's designs too and this individualizing of many holes when needed for some good reason (like side by side or basic parallelism) is evident! It certainly does not appear that Flynn advocated the use of trees in this manner though when there was otherwise no good reason to do so!

But what so far fascinates me most about his routings is a general inclination to route courses into easily accessible "sets" of holes to be played both in interesting and varied progressions and also if time is short for the golfer.

Kittansett is just another very good example of this. The clubhouse is out at the extreme end of Butler's Point next to holes #1 and #18 and the routing is basically out and back but in the form of two "ts" along the way. And the maintenance buildings are at the extreme end of the out/back holes #9 & #10. It is also very convenient that any player must drive right directly by the maintenance buildings on his way to the clubhouse!

But the interesting routing deal with the course is hole #5 going out has its green tight along side #15 tee going back. In this way, if a golfer played out from the clubhouse and #1 he could play to #5 green and step over to #15 tee and play back to the clubhouse at #18 and have done nine holes.

At the other end of the course a golfer could play nine by playing 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and step directly across #5 green to #6 tee on the other side and play #6, 7, 8, 9 and be right back at his car after having played a tight nine! There is even another way which flows from green to tee tigthly by playing #13, 14, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and again be right back at the car after having played another tight nine set!

Maybe there are some other tight set possibilities I'm not aware of yet, but this kind of thing we're seeing so much of on most of Flynn's courses that it certainly can't be just a coincidence.

Lancaster, in this way, has even more and interesting little "set" possibilities of playing the course.

Clearly this kind of thing may be possible on many other courses of most architects but even the balance and variety in the Flynn "sets" appears to be excellent too.

However Flynn did these things or for whatever reasons it sure did make him one helluva router, in my opinion!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2002, 06:46:37 AM »
Tom--

According to I believe the 1st Kittansett book, they actually moved the golf shop out to a little building by the 10th tee and that was the "clubhouse" for the winter months because of wind and potential flooding.  Apparantly, winter rounds at Kittansett were played on the wooded (and much warmer and wind sheltered) holes with the arrangement that you mentioned.  This has been confirmed by a member friend.  

Jeremiah Daly could probably give you a more complete answer than I about this, but it's pretty neat stuff.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Flynn Field Trip - Yield Anything Interesting?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2002, 07:14:38 AM »
Adam:

Interesting! I'm reading that book right now.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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