[mark chalfant]

Its been a long time since my visit, but I remember being impressed with this par four ,with  an uphill approach. Does anyone have opinions on its playing qualities ?  
thanks !

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

It's a good hole, but not having been there in years, it's hard for me to remember the differences between that hole and #2, another uphill par 4 which plays parallel to it.  I was surprised that Ross would build two similar holes side by side ... the first and tenth at Inverness are also parallel, but there one green site is up and the other down.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

It's a wonderful hole despite the similar 2nd which runs parallel to the 11th, which is also an outstanding golf hole.

While # 11 and # 2 share similarities, they have different personalities.

# 11 may be longer than # 2.

Both play over a pond/lake, but, I think the carry on # 11 may be more challenging and I believe # 11 sits a little higher than # 2.

# 2 has more trouble long, serious trouble, whereas # 11 has ample margin long.

Both holes usually play down wind, but, when the wind changes, they go from challenging holes to very difficult holes.

Both putting surfaces slope toward the front and it's not unusual for balls to be putted off the green and down into the fronting fairway or surrounding bunkers.

The angle off the tee may be a little more awkward on # 11 due to the flanking nature of the lake/pond on # 11.

Shots slightly misjudged or mis-hit that come up short pay a severe penalty, shots hit long are faced with a really dicey approach to a green that slopes away from the golfer, down into the fairway and bunkers.

I hope that helps

[mark chalfant]

Patrick and Tom, thanks for your reply

Patrick  thanks so much for   the details .My recollection that there is a bit more of   an angle on  #11  tee shot than on #2. A score card  I have indicates  that # 11 is 422yds  and   #2 is 390 yds  However the  card  is  two decades old. is the # 11 greensite  on propertys  highest  point ? thanks agian for your help

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

# 5 green may be at a slightly higher elevation, but, they're close.

One of the things that I envy about the membership is that they get to play the golf course in all wind directions and velocities, where my play has been more limited.

I think one of the geniuses of the routing and design is how the holes go through a metapmorphosis as the wind direction and velocities change.

Yet, the overall balance is preserved.

[McCloskey]

It is an average hole just like the 2nd.  
Regardless of what Mucci says, the holes are almost identical, which a real weakness in the routing by anyone's standard.   Seminole is an average golf course with very fast greens with green slopes made for much slower pace.   That is the only thing that makes it interesting, and sometimes that is to the point of ridiculous.

[John Kirk]

Mr. McCloskey,

I greatly admire your honesty here.  In recent months, there are far fewer non-positive remarks made about courses of Seminole's stature.  It's one of the untouchables.

With that said, I'm expecting a strenuous disagreement from Patrick.  I think Patrick has played the course quite a few times, and likes it a lot.

Your contrarian view should elicit interesting dialogue.

[Jim Nugent]

It is an average hole just like the 2nd.  
Regardless of what Mucci says, the holes are almost identical, which a real weakness in the routing by anyone's standard.   Seminole is an average golf course with very fast greens with green slopes made for much slower pace.   That is the only thing that makes it interesting, and sometimes that is to the point of ridiculous.

I've never seen or played the course.  Yet I know Hogan thought it was one of the greats, and I've read that he tuned up for most big events by practicing, sometimes for weeks, at Seminole.  

Was Hogan wrong (or uniquely challenged at Seminole), has technology changed the equation, or is there something else I'm missing here?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Nugent,

McCloskey doesn't understand the genius of the routing and the brilliant use of the ridges.

McCloskey also doesn't understand how to get up to and back down those ridges.

But, rather than take my word for it. Let me offer the words of Tom Doak.
[size=4x]
"But if anybody tries to tell you this ISN'T a GREAT golf course, either they've been treated like riffraff, OR THEY JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT GOOD IS. 9."[/SIZE]

Need I say more ?

[McCloskey]

I expected Mr. Mucci to violently protest and he did.
He made it clear that anyone that doesn't revere Seminole obviously just doesn't understand good design.
What a convenient argument and quoting Mr. Doak just puts an end to any further discussion.  After all, he is Tom Doak.
So I admit, I don't get it.    I will not bother to quote all the people that agree with me.   They obviously don't get it either.

There are some nice holes at Seminole. 4, 6, 10, 13, and 15 come to mind,  but the remainder are just average and the repetition of the 2 and 11 holes was even questioned by Mr. Doak.  Not even close to a 9 but that is just one man's opinion
NOT.

[JESII]

It is an average hole just like the 2nd.  
Regardless of what Mucci says, the holes are almost identical, which a real weakness in the routing by anyone's standard.  

Care to make a suggestion on an improvement to the routing?

[McCloskey]

JES II

No problem.

Play the back nine in reverse.
The present 10th hole could be built in reverse just by relocating the lake, and could be the 18th.

The 2 and 11 duplication problem is eliminated.

[JESII]

Sounds like a whale of an idea McCloskey...instead of "moving the lake" why not just build a green on the clubhouse roof for that finishing hole you've described?

[McCloskey]

JESII

You apparently want to be contentious, which I have no desire in pursuing.
I was thinking the routing could have "originally" been routed in reverse with some adjustments.  The lakes on the course could have gone virtually anywhere between the dunes.  I thought that was what you were referring to, not how it could be changed today.

I like the course, but I think it is just one of many overrated courses in America.

[JESII]

To suggest that the routing could have (or should have) been reversed for nine holes because one of those nine closely resembles a hole from the first nine wouls be the epitome of cutting off your nose to spite your face...

there are enough great holes in the present layout to justify a one-off negative...actually, considering that #11 is a stronger hole than #2 why would you choose to change the back nine?

[Mike Nuzzo]

I spent a day walking Seminole last year to learn how the flatter portion of the property was managed as my current site had a flat portion.

I was less than impressed with the low lying area - the middle.
I thought that area was bland, and it was of little help.
Without the wind it would be banal.

Apparenly Donald thought the same thing as almost every hole touches the dunes.

The dunes were excellent, and shows his routing ability.
I thought the ponds looked larger than they were - and well done for mere puddles.

I flew in that morning, and flew out that evening - my trip was just to walk the course.  Without playing, I can't say that I totally understood, but I did have a very enjoyable day.
The setting is idyllic, and sitting on the benchs by 17 and 18 was very peaceful, it was better than being at the beach as a kid.  

I could see how someone would see the 11th differently - especially the flat part.

Cheers

[Tim Gerrish]

I think you have to look at the entire picture when considering whether a routing is superb.  While 2 and 11 are not 6 or 18, they are, however, very solid golf holes to say the least.  Great golf courses are not 18 individual great holes, but a series of holes some good, others incredible and several that literally move you.  

If my memory is correct from playing there, the tee shots have a similar left to right look from the bunker placement with the ideal position being the left side skirting the fairway bunkers.  However, the angle from the tees on 2 suggests the hole to play more right to left working off the right fairway bunker.  The shot on 11 plays quite straight with the left fairway bunkers framing the landing area, which makes sense being a much longer hole.  

The greens are also at a similar angle, but contoured much differently.  11 is at an even plane without a lot of movement, while 2 has a pronounced swale/break on the front right.  

I'm sure we could all pick individual holes on great golf courses that are not great, but I sure would take these two holes on any course I play!

[james soper]

There are some nice holes at Seminole. 4, 6, 10, 13, and 15 come to mind,  but the remainder are just average

how about 17? a world class par three when the wind is up, which is almost always. 12 and 16 also come to mind as great golf holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II

No problem.

Play the back nine in reverse.
The present 10th hole could be built in reverse just by relocating the lake, and could be the 18th.

The 2 and 11 duplication problem is eliminated.

The State of Florida DEP, The Army Corps of Engineers,
The Lake Worth Water Management Agency, The South Florida Water Managment Agency and the Palm Beach County DEP, won't let you touch that lake, or any waterway that traverses the property.

Why would you move a lake, prone to flooding, close to the clubhouse ?

Playing # 15 in reverse is almost impossible.
Look at Google to get an idea of the location of the lake, the drive and second shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JESII

You apparently want to be contentious, which I have no desire in pursuing.

I was thinking the routing could have "originally" been routed in reverse with some adjustments.  

The lakes on the course could have gone virtually anywhere between the dunes.  

Are you POSITIVE that the lakes didn't exist in their current locations when Donald Ross worked on the site ?[/color]

I thought that was what you were referring to, not how it could be changed today.

I like the course, but I think it is just one of many overrated courses in America.

How would you have routed the golf course ?

Don't take Tom Doak's word for it,

The high praise given to the routing is almost universal.

To say that Seminole is NOT GREAT is to NOT UNDERSTAND IT

It's like discussing Plato with a chimpanzee  [/color]

[Michael Whitaker]

Patrick - Since you brought it up, a quote from Plato might be appropriate here: Bodily exercise, when compulsory, does no harm to the body; but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Whitaker,

I learned a great deal while attending school, despite the fact that I was forced to attend.  How about you ?

Perhaps, the next time, you can find a quote that's meaningful  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I expected Mr. Mucci to violently protest and he did.

My response was far from violent, it was considered.[/color]

He made it clear that anyone that doesn't revere Seminole obviously just doesn't understand good design.


You're wrong again.
I did nothing of the sort.
Tom Doak told you that If you don't think Seminole is great, YOU don't know what good is, not me.
I merely quoted Tom.[/color]

What a convenient argument and quoting Mr. Doak just puts an end to any further discussion.  

I don't think it puts an end to the discussion, I just think it context's the discussion.[/color]

After all, he is Tom Doak.


That's true, he is Tom Doak.
You are Tom Doak, aren't you Tom ?[/color]

So I admit, I don't get it.    

I understand that.
But, examine the topography in conjunction with the lakes.
Then, examine the routing.
12 direction changes, uphill holes, downhill holes, flat holes, straight holes, dogleg left holes, dogleg right holes, the diversity of the holes and most important of all, how the holes, individually, are altered by the direction of the wind, but, how the overall challenge of all 18 holes remains well balanced.[/color]

I will not bother to quote all the people that agree with me.  


That's usually a cop out when you don't have substantial support for your position[/color]

They obviously don't get it either.

You know what they say about birds of a feather  [/color]

There are some nice holes at Seminole. 4, 6, 10, 13, and 15 come to mind,  but the remainder are just average and the repetition of the 2 and 11 holes was even questioned by Mr. Doak.  

I'm curious with respect to your opinion of the 2nd hole.
You don't think that's a good hole ?

# 16 and # 18 aren't great holes in your opinion ?
Especially considering their location and direction ?

# 5 and # 7 aren't good to great holes ?

# 11 ?

# 12 has one of the great greens/surrounds in golf and you don't think it's a good to great hole ?  But, you think # 13 is ?

How many times have you played Seminole ?[/color]

Not even close to a 9 but that is just one man's opinion
NOT.

Tell the truth.   Were you treated like "riffraff"  ?
C'mon, you can tell us, were you ?
According to Tom Doak,  that's the only possible reason you would deem Seminole less than great.

But, according to you, it's just "AVERAGE"

Could you name 10 courses in Florida that are far superior to that "average" course ?[/color]

[Kirk Stewart]

I think the 11th is one of the more compelling 4 pars on the course. To me it is the start of 2 world class triumvirates; 11,12 and 13 (sometimes 14) and 16, 17 and 18.

I have played it both in the prevailing and out of the west winds. I have played it to a front pin-say 10-15 paces on, and a back pin. Each facet presents a different challenge to the golfer. The golf course I played last month had a stif 10-20 mph wind out of the east and brought the left FW bunker into play--the best angle to attack from. The approach shot was to a back right pin.

Does one aim right over the greenside bunker and sandy area between the 15th tee or hit some "hold" shot back into the wind and pray you have enough club.

One thing Seminole does offer is options. Plenty of options...

[TEPaul]

There probably was something that Ross could've done to make the 2nd and the 11th appear less similar to one another.

He could've tucked the first green between what is now the 1st green and the 2nd tee and closer to the water, although that wouldn't be completely necessary. Then he could've placed the 2nd tee around the other side of the water between that water and the 3rd fairway and made the 2nd hole much more of a dogleg or diagonal fairway.

I did not realize there was also a tee to the right of #1 green for the 2nd hole. Maybe I'm not observant but I know I never played from there or saw anyone else do it.

I think Ross may've done some pretty interesting and perhaps unique things at Seminole with their waterworks and perhaps he did have some latitude with pond or lake placement but from my experience with that course all the watercourses on that golf course are probably in the properties lowest elevations which I guess makes perfect sense.

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