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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« on: December 14, 2006, 12:33:02 PM »
I love Ross as much as the next guy, but one thing baffles me - why are there so many inquiries on this site about playing courses I've never heard of in Florida because they were designed by Donald Ross?

Without consulting Brad's book, I think you'll find 18 at New Smyrna Beach's municipal, 36 at Daytona Beach's municipal, 18 in Boca Raton somewhere, some stuff around Sarasota, and more.

There is ONE Ross course that is exceptional in our state and that is Seminole.  Timuquana is nice ONLY because it is an affulent (relative to all these low-end municipals) club and they've preserved and restored it.  Palma Ceia is similar in that it is a nice club, but the course is a real yawner - the victim of a bland site.

I asked Dr. Hurdzan a question about modern versus classic design as we stood on the (pancake-flat, barren) site of his next course in Naples.  One look at the place and it becomes obvious why architects move a lot of dirt.  And the answer isn't "because they can".  It is BECAUSE THEY NEED TO.

Ponce de Leon near St. Augustine was a better course than most of these mentioned and it doesn't exist anymore.  (I don't think.)  Donald Ross is known for excellent routings on terrific sites in Massachusetts.  He's known for the elegant use of the dominant ridge and finish culminating alongside the ocean at Seminole.  He's not known for crafting magic on tofu sites in Florida by leaving the earth undisturbed.  Nobody is.

I guess there is a notion that one may seek out and discover a unrecognized Hidden Gem.  I think the day for that is past.  Doak may have done it with Crystal Downs, but if Ross had anything at least one-tenth as good in the Sunshine State don't you think someone would have figured it out by now?

By all accounts a fun time can be had at Lake Wales.  Yet traveling to Florida to seek out Ross is like going to look for pretty girls in the locker room of an NBA team.  If that's what you want to do you'd go somewhere else.

Modern minimalists include Coore and Doak -two guys that haven't opened a course here yet.  When C&C finally does, the Sugarloaf Mountain site will stand out as being rather unique.  Ross's work was mainly contained within a few miles of the Gulf or Ocean where things are rather flat.

If you are coming to Florida my advice would be to play our Ross courses only as a historian.  If modern work isn't your thing then maybe Florida golf isn't either.

Great quote from the developer of Calusa Pines.  "I probably don't have a course that is better than Pine Valley or Shinnecock in July.  Ask me in January."  (Paraphrased, but the point holds.)

Rant over.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2006, 10:22:50 PM »
John, a lot of Ross' Florida stuff that wasn't hacked up by post-1960s designers still holds up pretty well against wave after wave of designers from the 1940s-1970s. His routings were pretty good, a little contour here and there, and even on flat site, like Timuquana - the intrigue is there. So maybe World Woods, Calusa Pines, Southern Dunes, Seminole, TPC Sawgrass, Jupter Hills, Johns Landing, are more dramatic and memorable and probably better, But compared to all of those Joe Finger-Cobb-Mahannah-Jones-Lee- etc courses in your state, and most everything by folks not named Wilson, Smyers, Dye, Fazio, Nicklaus and probably Garl, Donald Ross had them beat at Sara Bay, Bellevue Biltmore, and even New Smyrna Beach.

But I agree with one thing you said; Ross made his reputation elsewhere, up north, in the Sand Pines, Midwest and Northeast, not from his work in Florida.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 10:23:46 PM by Brad Klein »

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2006, 11:08:42 PM »
John,

Perhaps you have a problem with scheduling a trip around some random course Ross may or may not have done, and that's fine, I'll buy it.  But, if you were going to be in a given locale in which you'd never played, and you'd already scheduled the requisite 5-6 worthwhile courses in the area that are ranked, famous, or otherwise worth seeing, and you had a final spot or two to fill on the itinerary, as a student of architecture if given a choice between a quirky, old course done by Ross or a host of other palm tree-lined, Sawgrass wannabee, fountain-featuring Ted Robinson resort layouts, which would you choose?

And if you would choose the Ted Robinson design, would you really fault someone from this site for choosing the Ross course?

Why the fascination with Ross? Simple - he is responsible for some of the greatest and most influential designs in the history of the game.  I'd much rather include myself in an audience for a world class flautist with laryngitis, a hangover, an allergic swelling of the windpipe, and a fat lip before I go to a 9th grade music class and sit through a rank amateur struggling with a Recorder.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2006, 12:17:40 AM »
John-

This seems to be in response to my question about whether Dunedin, Bradenton, and Bobby Jones are like.  I've never had someone disagree with discussion of possible hidden gems....

Both Brad and trip planning compatriot Ryan hit the nail on the head here.

I ask about them because you can see hole-by-hole photos of World Woods, TPC Tampa, Innisbrook, etc....on the internet...but the old Ross-related courses are low-key enough that they seem mysterious to me.  There are some modern special places to see, but there are also some old perhaps forgotten layouts that need to be remembered.  I know going in that I will like a classic course better than your "regular Florida" course that has been built since then, that's the way I am.  As Brad said, the intrigue is there.  I would take a marginally-documented Ross course over Sunny Key Palms any day.

For instance, I played about 7 courses in eastern NC in December 04.  I liked Wilmington Muni better than Carolina National, Thistle, and Magnolia Greens....its experiences like this that make you search for the hidden gem.  And those courses had grass in the rough and well maintained bunkers, unlike WM.

I would love to experience all the great Ross courses in the country, and all the great courses of the world, but the last thing I will ever do is not play or seek out a certain course because "there is only ONE exceptional _____ course in our state."

In Mass., we have Essex, Brae Burn, Winchester, Worcester, Oyster Harbors, etc...so does that mean I should not go seek out Sandy Burr, George Wright, Bass River, Greenock?  Of course not.  Some aren't that great, but there are too many formulaic upscale courses with perfectly fair features, containment mounding, and 7 tee choices in this country.

I know you are just ranting here, and so am I for the most part, but "If modern work isn't your thing then maybe Florida golf isn't either" sounds a bit sour to me...
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2006, 01:02:56 AM »
Brad, someone headed to Miami asked about some course in Palm Beach County I'd never heard of before.  There was a big "save Ponce" movement.  Sheesh, the guy is credited with 400 courses - many aren't wonderful today and these in Florida are certainly in that category.

Forgotten layouts that need to be remembered?  I'd try Plantation Inn and Lake Wales as well as a Quass favorite, El Campeon at the Mission Inn.  So what if it isn't a Ross - at least the site is very interesting.

I prefer classic designs.  From reports I've read the Wilmington Municipal is superior to the 54 holes in Volusia County that are also municipal Ross courses.

Looking for Hidden Gems?  Remember, I compiled the list of them here from suggestions on this site.  Ross courses came up, as did courses in Florida.  But not Ross courses in Florida.

For a Hidden Gem near World Woods shoot for Golden Hills in Ocala.  Recently Rees-stored, he inherited a wonderful routing and only had to modernize the bunkering and tee locations.  I think it is excellent.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 01:03:59 AM by John_Conley »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2006, 07:35:36 AM »
A couple of these must be good? From DR Society.


Belleair Country Club -East Course Bellair FL 18 holes 1925 X
Belleair Country Club -West Course Bellair FL 18 holes, 9 remodeled 1915
Belleair Country Club -West Course Bellair FL 9 added 1915 X added
Belleview Mido Country Club Bellair FL 18 holes 1925 X
Biltmore Country Club Coral Gables FL 18 holes 1924 X
Bobby Jones Golf Course Sarasota FL 18 holes 1927 X
Boca Raton (Cloisters) Boca Raton FL 18 Holes 1925 X
Bradenton Country Club Bradenton FL 18 holes 1924 X Brentwood Golf Club Jacksonville FL 18 holes 1924  X
Country Club of Orlando Orlando FL 18 holes 1918 X
Daytona Beach Golf & Country Club - North Daytona Beach FL 18 holes 1946 X
Daytona Beach Golf & Country Club - South Daytona Beach FL 18 holes 1922 X
Delray Beach Golf Course Delray Beach FL 18 holes 1923 X
Dunedin Country Club Dunedin FL 18 holes 1926 X
Florida Country Club Jacksonville FL 18 holes 1922 X
Fort George Jacksonville FL 18 holes  1927 X
Fort Meyers Golf & Country Club Fort Meyers FL 18 holes 1928 X
Gulf Stream Golf Club Delray Beach FL 18 holes 1923 X
 X X
Handley Park Golf Club New Smyrna Beach FL 9 holes 1922 X  - Now Closed
Hyde Park Golf Club Jacksonville FL 18 holes 1925 X
Keystone Golf & Country Club Keystone Heights FL 9 holes 1928 X
Lake Wales Country Club Lake Wales FL 18 Holes 1925 X
Melbourne Golf Club Melbourne FL 18 Holes 1926 X
Miami Country Club Miami FL 9 Holes, (remodel 9) 1919  - Now Closed
New Smyrna Beach Municipal Golf Course New Smyrna Beach FL 18 Holes 1922 X
Palatka Municipal Golf Course Palatka FL 18 Holes 1925 X
Palm Beach Country Club Palm Beach FL 18 Holes 1917 X
Palma Ceia Golf Club Tampa FL Remodeled 18 Holes 1923
Palma Sola Golf Club Bradenton FL 18 Holes 1924 X
Panama Country Club Lynn Haven FL 18 Holes 1927 X
Pinecrest on Lotela Avon FL 18 Holes 1926 X
Ponce de Leon Resort & Country Club St. Augustine FL 18 Holes 1916  X  - was formerly St. Augustines
Puntra Gorda Country Club Puntra Gorda FL 18 Holes 1927
Riviera Country Club (Miami Biltmore) Riviera FL 18 Holes 1924  - was S. course of Biltmore Hotel
San Jose Country Club Jacksonville FL 18 holes 1925 X
Sara Bay Country Club Sarasota FL 18 holes 1925  - was Whitfield CC
Seminole Country Club North Palm Beach FL 18 Holes 1929 X
 X X
St. Augustine Links - South Course St. Augustine FL 18 Holes 1916  X
 X X - Now Closed
Timuquana Country Club Jacksonville FL 18 holes 1923 X
 X X
University of Florida Golf Club Gainesville FL 18 Holes 1921  
 X?  - was Gainesville CC

TEPaul

Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2006, 08:27:43 AM »
John:

For an architect who did that volume of courses I doubt Ross was even thinking of hitting a homerun one fortieth of the time. I grew up playing Gulf Stream in Florida and it's a nice course but it's always been pretty short and small. The thing is if you look very carefully at the plans for the course and the land there it's not hard to tell that Ross used it as well as it could possibly have been used. Let's put it this way---I don't think Ross turned down a lot of projects for any reason.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 08:28:04 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2006, 09:30:04 AM »
I'm amazed at the number of courses Ross did in FLA. Wow.

I'm starting to think that as good a Ross could be as a gca, he was a better business man. He was easily the best business man of any gca during the Golden Age.

Ross saw the explosion of courses being built from 1915 to 1930 and figured the vast bulk of clubs could not afford the full time services of a top flight architect. What most of them needed was a basic plan at a reasonable price that they could complete as best they could. So he decided to fill the gap. He brought to the market what it needed. It was brilliant.

To be sure, Ross was capable of designing first rate courses. But those required a lot of his time and he charged commensurately for his services. That was the business model for all the great archies of the GA.

Except for Ross. He was unique in that he saw himself - like Ford with his cars - as offering a range of architectural products. From fancy touring cars like PII, Seminole, Aroniminck, Salem, etc. to Model T's like many of his other courses. Decent, maintainable courses that were much better than anything local golfers could have  done on their own.

I can't think of any other architect, living or dead, who bifurcated his practice the way Ross did.

Bob

     
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 10:08:11 AM by BCrosby »

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2006, 10:00:25 AM »
John Conley has definitely earned a place on Mike Young's
Christmas card list.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 10:00:47 AM by John Cullum »
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006, 10:08:08 AM »
I'm sure if you are talking an "absloute scale of golf course architecture, " there are many modern courses in FL that eclipse what Ross designed in Florida.

But I originally asked because I admit that I'm biased towards older classic courses too.  As Ross is probably my favorite archie of the golden era, I would get more out of a mail order Ross than a benign modern layout.

I wonder if it has something to do with knowing you are getting Ross-influenced (at least) features and quality as opposed to the fact that all the middle-tier Florida layouts seem to blend together in my mind?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 10:14:40 AM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2006, 10:42:34 AM »
John Conley has definitely earned a place on Mike Young's
Christmas card list.

Go 'Dawgs!?

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2006, 10:44:29 AM »
I'm amazed at the number of courses Ross did in FLA. Wow.

Bob, I've said for a long time that Ross was prolific if nothing else.  And he designed many, many WONDERFUL golf courses (mainly in Massachusetts and areas near).

You're amazed at the number he did here (I am too), I'm amazed at the efforts to see them.  For the most part, these aren't his good ones.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2006, 10:46:45 AM »
But I originally asked because I admit that I'm biased towards older classic courses too.  As Ross is probably my favorite archie of the golden era, I would get more out of a mail order Ross than a benign modern layout.

I wonder if it has something to do with knowing you are getting Ross-influenced (at least) features and quality as opposed to the fact that all the middle-tier Florida layouts seem to blend together in my mind?

Then go to Cleveland Heights, Lake Wales, and El Campeon.  There are some courses designed here by Golden Agers not named Ross that are worth seeing.  By the time you come down they should be golfing on New Smyrna Beach.

wsmorrison

Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2006, 11:16:42 AM »
John,

Cleveland Heights was a good call.  Very interesting design and topography for Florida.

Indian Creek is one of a very small number of great Florida courses and compares favorably to anything Ross did in Florida.  

As part of the same Mizner development and very near Ross's Cloister Inn course, Flynn designed 2 courses for the Ritz Carlton that never got built.  Later, after Clarence Geist bought the property, Flynn designed and built 2 great courses, Boca Raton North and Boca Raton South.  The South just may have been the greatest course ever in Florida and an outstanding way to design on flat land.  Here is a par 3 which utilizes an S-curve (Ross used the feature on par 4s, Flynn tended to use it more on par 3s); a par 4 that Flynn varied the general concept at different sites depending upon the natural features and was inspired by Pine Valley's 12th which he probably built  and is found at Phila Country 1, Huntingdon Valley 4, Cherry Hills 7, Merion 10, Pepper Pike Club 8, Yorktown 3, Lehigh 15, Plymouth 4, Sunnybrook 13 (NLE), Indian Creek 13, Seaview 6, Monroe 8 and Boca Raton North 3; and a par 5 that is clearly inspired by the 7th at Pine Valley:

Par 3 hole 8 (colorized by Craig Disher)





Par 4 hole 15





Par 5 hole 17

« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 11:18:07 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2006, 11:31:15 AM »
Bob,

How about Jack Nicklaus, with his signature/involvement, signature/no involvement, offspring,  associate and design service for other pros levels of service?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2006, 11:52:28 AM »
Bob,

How about Jack Nicklaus, with his signature/involvement, signature/no involvement, offspring,  associate and design service for other pros levels of service?

Jeff,
How many 9-hole munis have those various Nicklaus labels resulted in? ;)
For that matter, how many of Jack's courses are even public access?  Plus, I'd make a seat-of-the-pants bet that the average greens fee at the Ross courses that are public access today is below (possibly well below!) the average of the public access JN courses.  Jack's fee structure hasn't resulted in that much variety, IMO.  Ross' did.
It may be that the huge variety of Ross courses, along with an "everyman" element, account for at least some of the fascination, I think.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2006, 02:10:54 PM »
So Sean, which Ross courses in Florida merit a visit?

I've walked Timuquana and played Palma Ceia and CC of Orlando.  I've seen New Smyrna Beach.

Do I owe it to myself to drive an hour to Daytona Beach for 36 holes of golf by The Donald - something I haven't done in 14 years here because I've never heard anyone say one thing about the course.

If they are worth seeing I'll go see them.  Which ones do you like?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2006, 02:14:16 PM »
Delray Beach GC is a bit of a disappointment.   It's kept in fine shape, but there really isn't all that much of the original course left.  

Over the years, changes were made by Robert Bruce Harris and Red Lawrence, which doesn't sound like a bad thing, but the course is sort of a mish-mosh with only a few holes like the par 3 17th left as standouts, if there were many to begin with.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2006, 02:18:10 PM »
Jeff -

I don't know much about the Nicklaus organization.

I doubt, though, that they offer a stripped down, economy service the way Ross did. Basically for $2K (I've heard as much as $5K), Ross would spend a day at your property. He then mailed a routing and hole by hole construction instructions. After that you were on your own.

It was a cool system. He did filet mignon out of one door and hamburgers out of another door.

His system presupposes a demand curve for new courses that is close to vertical and a shortage of architects to serve that demand, particularly in the SE where most of his economy model courses were built.

Ross was a pretty bright guy.

Bob

 

« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 02:19:37 PM by BCrosby »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why the fascination with Donald Ross?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2006, 02:26:55 PM »
Bob,

I'm beginning to think that perhaps the Ross bargain-basement method was later picked up by Stewart Sandwiches* who in their heyday provided a quick, tasty,filling, mobile meal for a good price....and chips too!  

They provide the raw goods and instructions, you provide the labor and enjoy the fruits.  ;)

* sorry...saw a cheap opportunity to name drop Stewart Sandwiches (RIP) into another thread for the amusement of Dan Kelly and other former fans of the franchise.

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