[Sean Leary]

or no mention of 18 at Cypress, the best 17 hole course in the world

[Tom Huckaby]

Whoa... there are some seriously high standards being stated here.

#6 Pasatiempo an awful golf hole?  Hmmmm... OK, I can live with someone calling it the weakest hole on that course... but that's a GREAT golf course.  #6 has a very testing tee shot offering strategic choice (does one try to get it up the hill where he can reach in two, or does one just punt and stay safe?)... then it also has a FANTASTIC green with a back neck that is really unique, pictured here:



If that's an awful golf hole, heck I don't want to start to think about the other truly bad holes I play regularly....

And as for Pebble, I can live with someone denigrating 1, maybe 2... but all others have greatness in their own way.  Good lord if 3, 5 and 7 are bad holes... wow.

[JohnV]

Tom, with that OB All down the left and the trees on the right #6 seems pretty penal to me.

It was the general consensus of my old foursome at Pumpkin Ridge that #7 at Witch Hollow was the worst hole on that course.  If it had been built as Cupp had originally designed it, it would have been much better.

Some others might include #9 at TOC, #7 at Dornoch, #17 at Royal County Down.

[Tom Huckaby]

JV - there is a penal element - but it's also fun, there are choices to be made, and one has a chance at success.  

And remember, penal does not necessarily equal bad.  Too much penal with no reward makes for not much fun.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

6? I think  it is very easy to try and find problems with Pasatiempo on the front, because the whole is SOOOO good. You have to try something. I guess 6 or 7 would be the likely culprit. I thought 6 was just a solid golf hole. I don't see the problem with it. I am glad that it is not too good of a hole, because if a few were any better out there, it would spoil playing golf at any other golf course.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn - I'm with you on that.  I guess the point
is this:  if someone were to ask me what is the
"worst" hole on Pasa, I'd nominate 6 or 7 also.  In
every ranking of anything, something has to be the
best and something has to be the worst.

But if someone asked me to name "awful" golf holes,
I'd hope I can name thousands before I can get
to either of these.

TH

[Sean Leary]

Tom, with that OB All down the left and the trees on the right #6 seems pretty penal to me.

It was the general consensus of my old foursome at Pumpkin Ridge that #7 at Witch Hollow was the worst hole on that course.  If it had been built as Cupp had originally designed it, it would have been much better.

Some others might include #9 at TOC, #7 at Dornoch, #17 at Royal County Down.

JVB,

What was 7 at WH supposed to have looked like?  

[Alan Carter]

So, we are calling the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 15th and maybe even the 11th and 12th at Pebble Beach poor holes, yet we call the 18th at the Old Course an amazing golf hole!

Somehow I think something is wrong with this picture.

I'd venture to guess that those holes get penalized because of how great holes like the 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 18th and a couple of others are.  Every hole on a course can't be perfect, but I suggest that some of the so called "weak holes" at Pebble would still be pretty good on most other golf courses anywhere.  I also think they work pretty well at Pebble.

[Glenn Spencer]

TH:

Exactly!! I have a few holes from really good courses that I can think of. Moraine is one of the great treats in the game, but the par 5 4th hole there, well, I don't know if AH could do any worse than that hole. Inverness #5 is just an abomination. I would put #14 at Camargo in the same class as #6 at Pasatiempo. A letdown THERE, but a reasonable hole nonetheless. I think #1 at The Honors is quite shaky. #1 at Crooked Stick is similar to the holes I mentioned at Camargo and Pasatiempo. 14 at Bethpage is similar. #2 at Old Waverly is pretty average at best. #15 at Victoria National is AWFUL in my opinion. So is #18. #18 at The Harvester is one of the worst par 5's I have ever played. It is a shame that it follows 17 of my favorite holes in the game. Actually, #5 on that course is not real great. Keeping with Iowa, I don't think 18 at Wakonda is all that great, but I love the golf course. #1 there is the hardest par 4 in the world!!!

[Glenn Spencer]

I think the 18th at The Old Course is a great hole. I haven't played Pebble and I don't really care to at $475. If 18 at TOC was 440, I think it would be one of the best holes in all of golf. I still think it is marvelous. It has no place in this conversation.

[JohnV]

JVB,

What was 7 at WH supposed to have looked like?  

The 7th was supposed to go out near the out of bounds fence and then dogleg left to the green.  The brave hitter could have hit over a field of fescue where the current fairway sits to go for it in two.

Basically if you follow the cart path today, that would have been the route of the hole.  The green wasn't changed when the routing was so it sits at a very awkward angle today.

This can be seen in the routing map at the entrance to the men's locker room.  There is a note written by John Fought on that routing that says there are some nice oaks that they should save.  These are the trees that run down the right side of the current hole.

There used to be a bunker that crossed the fairway 120 yards from the green.  It would have been a bunker that dug into the side of the fairway and would have had to be carried by player trying to reach it in 2 or shorten the hole substantially.  The USGA had it taken out prior to the Amateur as they realized that due to the trees on the right past it, 99% of the players would have been laying up to the same spot if it was there.  Removing it made the hole better as it gave a lot more options for how to play the second shot.  But, if the hole had been built as originally designed, it would have been a great bunker.

Another problem with the hole as built is that it is too close to #8 and has always been a problem with shots going both ways.  I read an article years ago where Cupp said he likes 225 feet between center lines for safety.  There is only 150 feet between  the center lines on 8 and 9.  The new trees that are between the 7th green and 8th tee were planted because of those safety issues.

[Lloyd_Cole]

17th at County Down is the biggest disappointment I've experienced. I guess the water has to go somewhere, but that hole looks like it comes from another country.

[Gary Slatter]

Alan: you have more good holes at Jasper than there are at Pebble Beach. . I love Pebble Beach but its pretty "normal" except for 7, 8, 9, 10, 17, 18 and 19.   It's great holes and great history make it what it is, GREAT.   Would it be a good if it only cost $35 to play?

[Paul Payne]

Glenn,

I am curious about your comments on #18 at Harvester. It is probably my least favorite hole on the course, but I wonder why you consider it aweful?

Most of the holes mentioned on this thread are courses I've never played so I can't ask this question of them, but Harvester is a course I have played many times. I'd like to hear your analysis.

[PThomas]

18 at Whistling Straits...that clover-shaped green just seems out of place to me

[Jim Nugent]

I saw Olympic Lake from the gallery a number of times in 1993 and 1994.  Fantastic course, but the par 3's on the backside looked pretty similar to each other.  Any comments from those of you who know the course well?  

[John_Conley]

Balls that land on the left side of the 6th fairway at Pasatiempo kick up against the out of bounds line.  The visual from the tee appears to give no room on the right - which I think is true.  The tall trees rob the grass of sun and water.  The corridor is so narrow you have to drive golf cars single file.  There is no possible way a hole like that would have been built on that site today.

I loved many things about the course.  I think it deserves its lofty placement on all rankings.  To consider this a candidate for World Top 100 one must close their eyes, hold their nose, or not pay attention to how dreadful this hole is.

[Tom Huckaby]

JC:

We shall agree to disagree.  I listed the positives of the golf hole and even gave you a picture.

I do think you're wrong about balls on the left side kicking to the OB line... do you mean on the tee shot or 2nd or approach?  Tee shot, there is a LOT of room to the left before one gets to the OB... remaining shots are very flat.  It does suck that they put the cart path on the left - maybe this is what you mean?  Also I don't find the fairway to be THAT narrow...

In any case to me it's a nut-tightening drive with several choices... and the hole has a great green.  Yes it would be better sans the massive trees on the right... but such is life.

As I say, I'd never call it a great golf hole.  But to say one has to hold his nose and it's dreadful?  That is way way way overstating things...

Methinks you need to see some truly dreadful golf holes to gain perspective.  Next time out, let me know and I shall take you to a few.  There are at least 500 worse than #6 Pasa within 100 miles of that course.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

I am curious about your comments on #18 at Harvester. It is probably my least favorite hole on the course, but I wonder why you consider it aweful?

Most of the holes mentioned on this thread are courses I've never played so I can't ask this question of them, but Harvester is a course I have played many times. I'd like to hear your analysis.

Paul,

Okay, but let me preface my disdain for 18. I LOVE the rest of the place. It has some MAGICAL stretches. 7-10 and then 12 and also 14-17. Tough to find better golf holes for me. Anyway, 18. I played it 5 times in one weekend and each and every time I went back tothe tee, I could not find a place to hit my tee shot. What is that bunker on the left about 310? So, that can't be carried. There is not sufficient room to fit it between the bunker and the water from the back. Lay it up short of everything and you have an akward lay-up shot, with the stuff on the left coming in pretty tight. I felt like the back tee was just thrown in or something. It didn't fit for me, the rest of the course is really solid golf and then this gambling hole that brings all sorts of numbers in for very little offense. I honestly would like to see it play as a par 4 from 490-510 so that big fairway beyond the bunker could be used. The green is fine and all, it is just the first two shots that don't do it for me though. The experience and the rest of the golf course are off the charts though. 7 is just an all-world par 4. The green there is fabulous.

[JLahrman]

Glenn,

In my opinion #16 at Camargo is the weakest hole, certainly weaker than #14.  The green seems contrived, no real definition to the tee shot, nothing special about it except the giraffe in the neighbor's yard that you see on the teebox.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

In my opinion #16 at Camargo is the weakest hole, certainly weaker than #14.  The green seems contrived, no real definition to the tee shot, nothing special about it except the giraffe in the neighbor's yard that you see on the teebox.

JAL,

I have not problem with that. What giraffe? I have never noticed that. Is it behind the tee or something? Contrived? I think it was one the better greens that I have played in America. I don't know what the thought was for that hole, but I like what I think of it. Reasonably easy tee-shot and then one of the harder approaches on the course depending on the pin. I like the hole quite a bit, actually, but I can certainly see why one wouldn't.

[Jason Topp]

Glenn,

I am curious about your comments on #18 at Harvester. It is probably my least favorite hole on the course, but I wonder why you consider it aweful?

Most of the holes mentioned on this thread are courses I've never played so I can't ask this question of them, but Harvester is a course I have played many times. I'd like to hear your analysis.

Paul,

Okay, but let me preface my disdain for 18. I LOVE the rest of the place. It has some MAGICAL stretches. 7-10 and then 12 and also 14-17. Tough to find better golf holes for me. Anyway, 18. I played it 5 times in one weekend and each and every time I went back tothe tee, I could not find a place to hit my tee shot. What is that bunker on the left about 310? So, that can't be carried. There is not sufficient room to fit it between the bunker and the water from the back. Lay it up short of everything and you have an akward lay-up shot, with the stuff on the left coming in pretty tight. I felt like the back tee was just thrown in or something. It didn't fit for me, the rest of the course is really solid golf and then this gambling hole that brings all sorts of numbers in for very little offense. I honestly would like to see it play as a par 4 from 490-510 so that big fairway beyond the bunker could be used. The green is fine and all, it is just the first two shots that don't do it for me though. The experience and the rest of the golf course are off the charts though. 7 is just an all-world par 4. The green there is fabulous.

Glen

I'm guessing you hit it right to left, which is definitely the wrong shot shape for this hole.  

We may have had this discussion before, but I disagree with your assessment of 18, having played it 25 times or so.  I think the hole is unique because it is a reachable par five where the opportunity to reach the green depends not so much on one's ability to bomb it off the tee, but on one's willingess to risk the water on the right.  If you look at the sprinkler heads, the distance to center of the green from near the water is about 230 for a short drive and maybe 210 if the drive goes 50 yards further (we lasered the distance to the pin at around 340 from the tee).  The reward for a longer drive is a better angle to the pin.  The distance for the 2nd is about perfect.  It is possible, but at that length, adding yardage by bailing out left really increases the pucker factor.  Nonetheless, when going for it there is a ton of bailout room short and left of the green.

If one bails out leftoff the tee, the options are again interesting.  One can conservatively go for the island or hit a full shot to the land that begins about 80 yards short of the green.  

As to the bunker in the center of the fairway, I do not recall it being as long as you suggest although I have only played the course from the back tees a couple of times (I usually play it at 6800 yards).  I've definitely hit it over the bunker and have played with others that hit it 50 yards past me.  Even if that were not possible, it provides an interesting choice between laying up at the bunker or left of it vs. squeezing it in between (I'm guessing 20 yards of room) vs. playing a fade short of the bunker that gets as close to the water as you dare.

The only criticism I agree with somewhat is that the hole is not really in character with the rest of the course.  I personally do not care because I think it is hole that rewards daring shots without limiting the possibility of reaching the green in 2 to bombers.

[JLahrman]

JAL,

I have not problem with that. What giraffe? I have never noticed that. Is it behind the tee or something? Contrived? I think it was one the better greens that I have played in America. I don't know what the thought was for that hole, but I like what I think of it. Reasonably easy tee-shot and then one of the harder approaches on the course depending on the pin. I like the hole quite a bit, actually, but I can certainly see why one wouldn't.

Glenn, when you're on the tee box facing straight down the fairway, the giraffe is about at your 7 o'clock.  At least it once was.

I'm all for fun greens, but it's out of place to me.  Every time I see it, it reminds me of a woman lying on her back.

[Adam Clayman]

it reminds me of a woman lying on her back.

And what's so wrong with that?

[John_Conley]

I listed the positives of the golf hole and even gave you a picture.

I do think you're wrong about balls on the left side kicking to the OB line... do you mean on the tee shot or 2nd or approach?  Tee shot, there is a LOT of room to the left before one gets to the OB... remaining shots are very flat.  It does suck that they put the cart path on the left - maybe this is what you mean?  Also I don't find the fairway to be THAT narrow...

In any case to me it's a nut-tightening drive with several choices... and the hole has a great green.  Yes it would be better sans the massive trees on the right... but such is life.

Hucks, I have no interest in seeing holes worse than that one - if they do in fact exist.  Do you agree that such a pencil-thin hole is at least out of character?

When my drive up the left has playing companions saying, "nice shot," it was a surprise to see it in by just a yard.  And it didn't hook.  Maybe it isn't always as dry and hard up the left.  

The green there is fine.  There are some cool holes on the front.  #2 is wonderful, #3 is solid, and #4 is pretty neat too.  I don't even mind the tight #7 as much because it is interior - you can't fire one O.B. there.  

I parred both #6 and #7 so it isn't like sour grapes.  I just really don't understand having such a narrow hole.

I like Pasatiempo a lot.  But I find it funny that much of what I like is different than what others prefer.  That 16th green, said to be MacKenzie's favorite, is too much for me.  The back hole location is a little much!

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