[Mike_Sweeney]

Our club allows juniors, once they've qualified--not by score but by learning the rules, proper behavior and ability to keep pace, to host 3 junior non-members for free on our second course.  

Somebody owes me some credit down there, I used to pay for my rounds there!!

[TEPaul]

"It is not the kids fault where they are born:"

MikeS:

No, it certainly isn't. I pretty much subscribe to the theory that most things start at home. In some cases and places today the concept of "home" is getting pretty shaky and that sure ain't the kids' fault either.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike S:  I didn't make any reference to how much money Jack personally may or may not be making in the business ... I just said his business seems to be thriving, which I thought was something of an understatement.

You are right, not all of those projects will ever get built, but the same is true for any architect's list of projects under contract.  Heck, there are some courses discussed here which have been "in planning" for 3-4 years and still show no sign of moving forward.

[PThomas]

For that matter, golf courses should make it easier for kids to play golf.  Our club allows juniors, once they've qualified--not by score but by learning the rules, proper behavior and ability to keep pace, to host 3 junior non-members for free on our second course.  Private courses need to make a concerted effort to make golf accessible to juniors, especially in the summer on weekdays.

Public golf courses ought to see the light and encourage junior play through free clinics that certify them to play unaccompanied in a foursome of juniors playing at a discount.  Tournaments for juniors will give them something to strive for and practice.  Practice facilities should offer a discount to junior golfers during certain hours.

I don't know how well these macro initiatives work, but there's a lot that can be done at the local and course level.
[/quote

well said Wayne

[Jerry Kluger]

I think that one of the most important issues to be addressed is the image of golf, namely, that is a rich man's game and the government should not subsidize golf courses.  Let me give you an example of the problem.  I went to my local county owned golf course to play with my sons, ages 10 and 13, last weekend.  The fee to play the course is $42 on the weekends no matter what your age.  So for the three of us it was $126.  That may not sound like a big number but do it on a weekly basis and the cost is more than $500 per month.  Add on to that play during the week, practice balls, etc. and the number is even bigger.  So to play the muni course on a regular basis with my kids would cost as much as a private club.  If they reduced the fees and the course lost money the government would be afraid of the backlash from the public because of the image of the game.  I don't have to tell you how much they subsidize other sports.  

[Jim Thompson]

If the industry doesn't step and do something about the disconect with gen x and gen y there won't be any course around by the time the junior players come of age.  As a gen Xer, I think I can safely say that we don't believe any of the benefits the early fifty something retirees are enjoying will be around when we are fifty.  Most of us are concerned about how we're going to care for our folks and children given the debt levels we see around us.  The smart ones think they are going to have to solve all the problems of the world without the benefit of any kind of Social Security, that great safety net program that has since been made into a hammock, type program at the end of the trail.  As a result, we are putting acorns in the tree as fast as we can and trying to do it without getting to depressed over the future.  In our quest to find those little acorns we, as a whole, are working more than the generation before us.  When you couple that with gen X's insistance upon making their childre in to teen agers by the age of six, think of all the organized events little kids have these days,  the time needed to play golf as it is presented in America just isn't there.  If you really want to grow the game, you'd better find a way to get more match play events on the tour schedules, outlaw the Nassau and any other game that requires every hole to be played out to the end.  Oh, and by the way, it starts with the 50+ somethings starting the trend back to afternoon two balls and matchplay games because we gen Xers still think you guys are pretty cool and we do want to grow up to be like you.

Think about it,

JT

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: Your comments are very interesting and your perceptions are even more interesting.  Yes, I am a baby boomer and I do recognize your concerns with the future but your perceptions about how hard people work is way off.  People do sometimes work less as they get older, say 55 and over, but that doesn't mean that they didn't work their butts off when they were younger.  You are presuming that all of us over 55 never worked any harder than we are now but that is not the case.  What I do see today is so many more wants and desires with the next generation and their question is how will they get everything that they want.  They see the over 55 crowd having much of what they want and they don't recognize that those things didn't just fall out of a tree; people worked hard to get them.  I can remember when I was 30 years old and buying a house how the builder questioned if I could meet the income requirements for the mortgage; we bought the house but we never got around to a dining room table and chairs.  You stretch and sacrifice and hope that you've made the right decisions and try to remember that as the Rolling Stones once said - "You can't always get what you want."

[RJ_Daley]

Jerry, it seems this thread will be destined to migrate to the social-economic question of our times:  Is the middle class shrinking, and how will that effect golf.  I expect that the relocated Lou Duran will be along shortly to explain the whole misperception of that to us.  

I am not completely clear on Jim's line of thought here.  Are you saying that the older gen, typically playing a leisurely game of 4-4.5 hours is hurting the growth of the game in a younger and more pressed for time generation?  Therefore, they are not playing as much because they are too pressed for time working and placing acorns, and taking junior and missy to all the overly organized events in what little spare time they have?  

First, I don't know that the younger gen, acquiring the mcMansion lifestyle with double income demands inorder to  chase big debt, provide all things organized to kids, etc., is ever going to lead to an expansion for numbers playing golf.  It just can't.  Look at how many of our GCA posters, ardent fans of the game, many of them good sticks, often post that now they are a Daddy, and they may be lucky to play a round or two this year!  Why?  Because their work is long and demanding, their spouses work, their finacial obligations are so great, their time to devote to kids is so small, that they drift from the game, and more importantly, a better paced life?

MHO to the younger gen is Fuggetaboutit!  downsize!  get a smaller home, drive a smaller car, try and get the wife back in the home, at least part-time to spend more time razing the kids in the crucial years and taking the pressure off both of you.  Then, you'll all have better time together.  Work more after they are grown a bit.  Enjoy your life and the kids now, and lower your need for instant gratification with all the trimmings of an upscale life.  That life will still be there for you when you do your bit as a young family.  Watch and care for who you vote for that also believes the middle class needs encouragement, not competitive floggings.  

If the kids have good food, a roof, recreational opportunity, and access to education, it doesn't matter if it is mcMansion, Harvard, U.S developmental sqaud sport team, etc., they will flurish and grow up with just as many good values and attitudes as if they were given everything on a silver platter.  And vote for someone that realizes the middle class has to be enhanced, not shrunk and shipped elsewhere, or don't succumb to be pressured to be slaves in our own home country economy.  

Adopt a more euro model in lifestyle and middle class moderate expectations.  I think they are all laughing at us on the rat race wheel.

[Jim Thompson]

Jerry,

I'm not trying to imply that you either do or don't or didn't work nor anyone else in your generation.  What I'm trying to share is the perception that the gen x & Y crowd has.  The reasoning is that we, the golf industry, might begin to understand why the middle generation is not turning to golf as a first form of recreation stemming mostly from future financial fears.  It would be very interesting to have the actual stats of the ages of players that come into our shop in a given year.  There are a bunch of twenty somethings that play, more forty somethings that play "as business" and those older that are enjoying the fruits of their labors.  There is a huge void among thirty something coming to the club.  

I remember when I was a child and wanted to play a game of anything, I'd get on my bike and ride around to see my friends.  If six of us could get together we'd play basketball.  If there were ten of us we'd play football and if there were more we'd figure out how to play some sort of baseball game.  My comments should be considered as much of an indictment on how the gen x  & y parents are obsessed with ayso soccer, ymca flaf football, 8 yera old full contact football, gymnastics, youth swimming, tennis and all these other things that are not only taking away from, most importantly, family time , but a kids chance to be a kid.  These organized events are also directly competing with the recreational time that 30 and 40 somethings have to play a game that takes half a day.

As for your generation, I know how hard my folks worked and that is why they never played golf.  I didn't get on a course until my Jr. year of college.  As generations go, both mine and yours have consumers in their ranks.  That said, with the number of two and three job families coming up the pipeline finding that extra time for a game that requires time and dedication to master coupled with a pretty unrealistic need for instant gratification, golf is a tough sell.  It should also be noted that many gen x & y ers don't see the over 55 crowd as having what they want.  They see their parents, many fiscally compromised by divorce, as moving in with them in the near future and settling for a job as a greeter at WalMart.

What you should now about me:  Growing up my mother was the only child of her generation in her family with two aunts, one of whom past away in her 70s, the other lived with us until she past away in her late 90's.  My grandmother had a stroke when I was four and need carefor the last 20 or so years of her life and she was mariied to my grandfather who was a dairy farmer (I don't think anyone has a harder working job).  

Its not about how hard whomever worked.  Its about time, and getting all the things done that need to be done in today's world vs yesterday's.  Look at productivity numbers over the last three decades.  Every year they go up and alot of that is due to technology, the rest is due to decreased margins and  extra hours spent.  The industry must bridge the gap to the thirty somethings or it will nor survive to get to the garner the next crop of customers.  I don't think its about cost either.  Lord knows there are members of every generation willing to throw money out for fun.  Its about changing the mentality from we'll go have a lot of fun on one or two big trips a year to supporting and participating in a multi-trip oriented weekly recreational activity.  Personally, I blame most of this on cell phones and how the serve as a crutch to poor planning and time management.  I don't think my generation will figure that out 'til its to late either.

Hope that helps,

JT

[Jim Thompson]

Another thing.  Why is it that clubs need to encourage forusomes of kids to play together?  Look parents, be parents!  Take your sons and daughters out with you to the course to play with you and one of your friends.  Courses fear something happening to your child while unattended on the property.  This crosses all generational lines.  There will come a time when, if you want to play with me on a weekend, you'll have to play with me and one or both of my sons.  I can tell you there are those that will read this and say, "Yeah right, you're just saying that to increase players or rounds or make the rest og us feel bad for leaving the kids at home."  The same will say, " How am I going to teach my children how to behave and act on a golf course?"  The answer is simple and easy and its the same rason you have dinner with your family and teach your kids table manners by the age of four.  It's your job.

People are selfish with there time and it is a disease that is taking over our society.  How many divorces would be eliminated with just alittle more attention and time?  How many families would be better with just a little more time?  The boys club mentality can not cross all socio-economic levels because not everyone can pass the economic test that provides income to do so by supplementing an individuals time schedule.  Golf's decrease in appeal is a projection of a social problem.  The fact of the matter is everyone is busy, everyone is tired, and everyone to some extent is scared of something.  This society does not enjoy the positive outlook that a post war victorious 1940's and 50's did.  We, as a whole, definitely need to "free our minds so our collective asses can follow." (that was for you Marty)

JT

[JMorgan]

Mike:

That sounds like a great program to emulate in PS 184 in Harlem, don't you think? How much crack do you think you could score for a nice Callaway driver?

Tom,

They are playing squash in The Bronx, so why not golf in Harlem. You have to start somewhere. It is not the kids fault where they are born:

http://www.citysquash.org/about_us.htm

Tom and Mike, when's the last time you were in Harlem?  The kids there are going to private school now!  The Bronx, East New York in Brooklyn, Hamilton Heights... now we're talking crack.  (And only fifteen years ago, it was NoHo and the East Village -- man, I'm getting old.)

Why is golf not part of a P.E. curriculum?  Take the kids to Van Cortlandt or Dyker Beach!  Or even Prospect or Central Park!

I agree with Wayne and Jerry.

[Bruce Katona]

Back to the basic idea of the thread.......shrinking participation.....it appears the answer is a fairly simple supply and demand equation....supply (golf courses) exceeds demand, therefore the supply will decrease through either redevelopemnt of assets which can't economically compete(be economically sustainable thru either profitability or government subsidy) until equilibrium is reached or  demand needs to be improved to utilize available supply......the grow the game programs have not yet been successful, so supply will shrink accordingly.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: I have a bit of what I would call a unique perspective as I am an older guy with young kids.  I have two sons who are good athletes, not great, but good.  So they played soccer, baseball, basketball, etc. because all the other kids did.  Now that they are older they are realizing their limitations and the older one is concentrating on basketball and the younger one on soccer.  Oh yeah, and they're both concentrating on golf.  The reason is that we can all go out and play it together and we don't keep score - we enjoy the game just playing and doing it together.  If we go out and play together my wife really doesn't care how long it takes - just so long as we are doing it together.  And cost, well, if you can get over the initiation fees, golf doesn't have to be that expensive.  So you drive an older car and pay dues instead of a car payment - it really is money well spent if you do it as a family.  

I also try and teach them about golf course architecture.  I was a rater at one time and I would take my older son with me and we always would play at off times so we would not bother other players.  I can remember playing a really good course that had this short uphill par 4 and the pin was up front - we both played about 6 or 7 shots trying to see what type of shot would work best to get close to that pin - he learned how good designs challenge a player to think and be creative.  What a great time we had.

I think parents today have to recognize that kids love to play with their parents as well as their friends and golf gives them the opportunity to do that.  Golf courses should invest in their future by encouraging family play on the weekends in the later afternoon or offer 9 hole family rates during the week - it will pay off when the kids get older and they become avid golfers and support the industry.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Why is golf not part of a P.E. curriculum?  Take the kids to Van Cortlandt or Dyker Beach!  Or even Prospect or Central Park!

James,

I saw in another thread that you can get to Bethpage in 15 minutes from the Midtown tunnel. Now kids will catch a quick 9 after school at Van Cortlandt, and will hit golf balls in Central Park for PE.

I feel like I am in that Seinfeld "Bizarro World" where everything is opposite. This New York City that you describe is it on another planet from me.

By the way, I live 4 blocks from the the start of Spanish Harlem, and I am teaching my 11 year old to play street basketball with kids from that neighborhood.

[JMorgan]

Mike, the fact that you live four blocks from Spanish Harlem shows how much the neighborhood has been gentrified!

Whatever.  My bigger point was, what would be so difficult about taking kids who go to school near Van Cordlandt to play as part of a school p.e. curriculum?  Ditto for schools near the many muni courses in and around the city.  Why is that so outlandish?  At least it gets a subset of a generation who might otherwise never play a taste of the sport, takes whatever onus -- I don't know why there would be one in the first place -- off the USGA, and introduces more future golfers to courses.  Do the same thing in other cities.

It took us 17 minutes to get to Bethpage Black from the Manhattan side of the tunnel one recent, early Sunday morning.   If you can make it down to Grand Central in the wee hours next spring, you're welcome to a back seat.  Bring a stopwatch.

Giddeeyup!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think it is shrinking and that it's going to continue to shrink.

First to take the hit will be those clubs which are the 2nd, 3rd or 4th club for a golfer.  Clubs that are further removed from the golfer's office and/or home.

Others that might take a hit are those clubs where you have to bring your own game.

The only caveat is that some of those clubs have owners/members with deep pockets that can ride out a trend.

Clubs that are presently scrambling for members will have to take a long, hard look at operations.

Do they serve breakfast, lunch and dinner ?
Will they go from full service clubs to strictly golf clubs ?

I can see a number of clubs changing their culture and becoming GOLF clubs until the trend reverses itself.

I see eminant domain and developers entering the picture where a club may be on the financial brink.

Rather than continue to operate at a loss, with fewer and fewer members to fund operations, clubs will come up for sale.

At that point, municipalities may throw their hat into the ring, vis a vis, eminant domain.

Survival will have nothing to do with architecture, it will have everything to do with the wherewithall of the membership and location.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Emmy]

B. Klein and B. Katona: (Sounds like a new law firm)
In reference to your posts:

Before you continue to question the success of growth-of-the-game programs, why not give them a little time to sprout the new players our game needs.

Here are a few facts:

In 2004, Play Golf America (a national initiative designed to grow the game) was launched in the U.S.

In '05 there was increased participation in all programs over the previous year, and again in '06.

The official web site (playgolfamerica.com) which serves as an electronic bulletin board for all the initiatives, had a 95.3% increase in traffic this past June, versus the same month in '05.

In '06, 1,459 golf facilities stepped up and posted their player development programs, a 100% plus increase over last year's 710 facilities.

Also in '06, over 147,000 consumers participated in Free Lesson Month, a 21%  increase from '05.

In '06, 585 golf facilities in the U.S. hosted Women's Golf Week, which more than doubled last year's total.  24,570 women participated, a 159% increase from '05.

In July of  '06 participation was up 16.8 percent over '05 during Take your Daughter/Child to the Course Week.

For those who have interest in Family Golf, a new test program was launched this past summer called Golf: A Family Vacation for a Day. The program was designed for families to learn and play the game of golf together. I would suspect the program will return in '07, since interest in family group activities seem to be on the rise.

[Mike_Sweeney]

It took us 17 minutes to get to Bethpage Black from the Manhattan side of the tunnel one recent, early Sunday morning.   If you can make it down to Grand Central in the wee hours next spring, you're welcome to a back seat.  Bring a stopwatch.

Giddeeyup!

James,

It is 32 miles from East 33rd Street to Bethpage State Park via Yahoo. So at 4:00 AM you were traveling on the LIE at 100+ MPH with all the drunks coming out of Manhattan after a night of partying?   I think I will pass on your offer.

[JMorgan]

It took us 17 minutes to get to Bethpage Black from the Manhattan side of the tunnel one recent, early Sunday morning.   If you can make it down to Grand Central in the wee hours next spring, you're welcome to a back seat.  Bring a stopwatch.

Giddeeyup!

James,

It is 32 miles from East 33rd Street to Bethpage State Park via Yahoo. So at 4:00 AM you were traveling on the LIE at 100+ MPH with all the drunks coming out of Manhattan after a night of partying?   I think I will pass on your offer.

That's why I drive a Volvo  

[TEPaul]

"But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

Patrick:

I haven't seen that in a long time. That was from back in the old days when you actually had some humility left.  

But you're right, it will probably have little or nothing to do with architecture. Never did, I guess. Did you know, for instance, that Shinnecock came very close to being sold?

[JESII]

The fact is, in the private golf/country club community the best courses (architecture) tend to have memberships with the most wherewithall. That's just a fact. That means they will be at less risk. The other thing is, the second, third and fourth clubs are also prepared to persevere through a down period with membership shortages because their members typically have the funds. It is the middle of the road privates that will suffer the most because club expenses are a substantially larger percentage of their average members expendible income than the high end privates.

[Paul Payne]

I mentioned this before and I am surprised nobody else has picked up on this line of thought.

I think the greater impact is going to be on the equipment side of the equation. A dramatic drop in gofers would have the single greatest impact on the onslaught of technilogical improvements to equipment. Not only would this change the options that are available to us but it could dramatically slow down or freeze the impact these improvements are having on our courses.

If you think of it this way, consider how much money would be saved by not having to build new courses or lengthen and improve old courses to keep up?

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