[John Kavanaugh]

How similar is this article to the book written by Mark Fine on hazards.  (besides length and scope) Was James Finegan a contributor to Mark's book.

[John Kavanaugh]

Does anyone have experience with the great sea rushes at Royal North Devon.  Will they still catch a ball and hold it several feet above the ground..

[Noel Freeman]

JK-

From my experience they will not impale a ball... and I hit a few shots into them to see...

[John Kavanaugh]

Do you agree with Finegan on the following take about the game without hazards which he defines only as bunkers and water: "The game would be much the poorer without them and their kin. In fact, it wouldn't be golf at all: It would be a souless slog at worst, a walk in the park at best."

[John Kavanaugh]

JK-

From my experience they will not impale a ball... and I hit a few shots into them to see...

Noel,

The article says the harder modern ball is not likely to be impaled.  I was curious if they are denser than the local briar patch that cuts up your leg when wearing shorts.  Are these things near impossible to walk through.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,
I skulled one once off of the tee on #2 on the Old Course, and I'm telling you this thing was hot coming off of the club. I walked out there to try to see if I could find it and did, sitting about five-foot high hanging on to outside of a gorse bush. If Bernie Barrett happens to be reading, he can back this up. He was there with me.

Tough stuff that gorse. While the Great Sea Rushes are different, they're probably just as tough!

[ForkaB]

From my experience, the sea rushes at RND will not stop anything--even a Cayman ball hit by Mrs. Haversham.  As for the horses that graze near the rushes at about 180 off the tee, now that's another matter.....

[John Kavanaugh]

In reading about the eighth at Roal West Norfolk the author mentions that tidal flooding can actually cut off the club house for up to three hours.  Are there any other courses where a golfer can get stranded at either a clubhouse or on the course during a change in tide.  He says amusingly at the end of his description that members find a tiny booklet called Hull Tide Tables indispensable.  This somewhat reminds me of the tide fluctuation down at Myrtle Beach, though not to this extreme.  I think it was River's Edge by Palmer where this was most evident.

[ForkaB]

In the old days, you had to take a boat to reach the 1st tee at Carnoustie.

[John Kavanaugh]

Rich,

How was that changed..and as far as the rushes at RND, can you walk through them and retrieve a ball.  The article made them out to be razor wire.

[ForkaB]

John

I am probably not the son of god, so I never try to walk on water unless absolutely necessary.

The answer to the Carnoustie question is "a bridge."  Not sure if it contained any asphalt.

Helpfully

Rich

[John Goodman]

In the old days, you had to take a boat to reach the 1st tee at Carnoustie.

Check out Rountree's illustration "Portmarnock: Coming home" in Golf Courses of the British Isles - the horse pulling the cart with the golfers is in water up to its shoulder.  B. Darwin seemed to like the fact that you might get caught and have to cross to/from the course at high tide:  "When the weather is pleasant, the necessity for this crossing in miniature gives to Portmarnock a fascination of its own.  There is an element of romance in playing golf even on a temporarily sea-girt island."

I think there is asphalt involved in getting to the course now.

[Mark_Fine]

John,
I have not yet seen the article so I can't really comment.  Maybe Forrest has?  

We did talk to Jim Finegan when putting our book together but then again we talked to a lot of people.  Jim was a big supporter of our work and our cause.  Forrest and I certainly agree with him that the game would be much poorer without hazards.  

If you read some of the comments from others in chapter 9 you will see similar opinions.  Hazards (both formal and non formal) are the soul of golf!  
Mark

[peter_p]

Pampas grass is a greater hazard. I was watching a landing area and saw a ball enter a pampas grass plant and started searching for the ball. Bloody hell ensued with multiple cuts to my hands. I did persuade them to mark the offending shrub as being inside the margin of a water hazard in future events.
The ball was never found.

[Mike_Cirba]

For some reason, I took great sadistic pleasure seeing golf balls impaled into some giant Sagauro cacti just off the tee on courses in the foothills above Tucson this spring.

[ForkaB]

In the old days, you had to take a boat to reach the 1st tee at Carnoustie.

Check out Rountree's illustration "Portmarnock: Coming home" in Golf Courses of the British Isles - the horse pulling the cart with the golfers is in water up to its shoulder.  B. Darwin seemed to like the fact that you might get caught and have to cross to/from the course at high tide:  "When the weather is pleasant, the necessity for this crossing in miniature gives to Portmarnock a fascination of its own.  There is an element of romance in playing golf even on a temporarily sea-girt island."

I think there is asphalt involved in getting to the course now.

Thanks, John

I remember that factotum from the World Atlas of Golf.  Can you think of a better place to be stranded for a day or two than Portmarnock, particularly in the olde days?

[TEPaul]

Are these things really hazards as "Hazards" are defined in the Rules of Golf?

I haven't read Mark Fine's book on Hazards but is all that he talks about as hazards in there really "Hazards" as they are defined by the Rules of Golf?

[John Kavanaugh]

TE,

To quote the article, Finegan says: "For this list of the world's nine most formidable such dangers, we've gon by the strict Rules of Golf definition and included only bunkers and water hazards--all other infernal features, such as tress, boulders and buildings, are properly called "obstacles."

[Mark_Fine]

In our book, we talk extensively about formal and non-formal hazards.  Obviously the formal ones are those defined in the rules of golf.  

Now if we can't even get guys like Tom Paul to read our book, what hope do we have for getting the rest of the golfing public to pick up a copy and learn something about golf architecture    

[John Kavanaugh]

Mark,

What is the best avenue to get a copy of your book..I just went to Amazon and was suprised to see it as a $70 item.  I can pay the S&H to get TEPaul a copy but can't quite go the full fare...I'll even go half if I can get a matching offer.

[Mark_Fine]

John,
Unfortunately, our publisher sets the price of the book, we don't.  They consider it a text book and based on the high cost to produce it (there is some color) and the projected number of sales, a price point is chosen.  If you email me offline, I will get you my "seminar" price and save you a few dollars.  

Note:  I think Tom Paul is starting to get more into golf architecture.  He might almost be at the point where he is ready to begin buying books like this  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Mark, You have sold one on this side of the Atlantic.  I have a copy.

[Mark_Fine]

Mark,
I'm glad to hear someone on this site bought one     Actually, I know many here who do have copies.  

Those who have a copy have to tell us if you thought it was worth it?

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