[Patrick_Mucci]

No, just that you've drawn faulty conclusions on an incomplete set of facts

And yours are a complete set of facts?  

Of course

You're digging a hole for yourself Patrick - whats the over/under on how many posts it will take before you're forced to concede and apologise?  

Chris,

I've never declared my opinion of the hole, I've only asked questions and challenged opinions about it, so there's nothing to concede or appologize for.

James Bennett,

TEPaul has never played the hole, that's why he's refrained from commenting to date.

 
A question to all:

Didn't the original course play backwards from its current order ?

Where was the tee for # 18 in that order of play ?[/color]

[Paul_Turner]

1)

I'm not a fan of isolating and analysing golf holes scientifically; we're not golfing automata.  The best critics, like Bernard Darwin, knew better.

[Pete Lavallee]

I also vote "1".

The strategy formed by the OB, tilt of the green and Valley of Sin is so simple, yet so effective; these 3 facets combine to form a wonderfully timeless puzzle. Using these 3 features the value of the hole could be replicated anywhere; like Talking Stick #2 or #2 at Rustic Canyon. Perhaps the simplicity of the design obscures its' greatness from it detractors?

[Mark Chaplin]

An exact replica in my opinion would only rate as a moderate hole.

However as the final hole of TOC it is a great hole, even without the view and the history it is the perfect partner to the Road Hole and like so many simple short par 4s is anything but.

[Tom Roewer]

To me the 18th @ TOC is close to perfection.  It looks easier than it plays.  The setting can not be beaten.  And especially the first time there you are torn between the first memory of playing there and not wanting the round to end.  I have a beautiful photo, enlrged and framed,  that I took from my 4th floor room @ Russacks Hotel of the green and clubhouse to always remind me.  Almost heaven!

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

If I replicated the hole on one of my courses, I would probably be praised for it, because everyone knows that criticism is much more favorable toward me than toward any of my contemporaries (except for one or two).

But I suspect that most architects would be hard-pressed to just let the Valley of Sin do all the talking, and stop themselves from putting a bunker somewhere in the fairway.  Heck, I don't know if I could stop myself.  We did do a Valley of Sin - like feature on the 8th hole of The Renaissance Club in Scotland, which will come back up against the clubhouse, but honestly we were thinking about the 12th green at St. Andrews instead of the 18th so it is a bit more complicated.

[ForkaB]

Darren

In a clinical analysis I'd give it a 2.  Very little strategy for the elite player but a bit more for the rest of us--in both cases focusing almost entirely on the 2nd shot, no matter where or how you hit your drive, one great pin position but the rest of them being ho-hum.  Yet, of course, as most people have said or implied, you can't ignore the eye-candy or the soul-candy.  Stuck in the middle of a field in Indiana it would be medicore at best, were it is it is at the very least a world-class experience.

Patrick

The old (reverse) tee was to the left of the Swilcan bridge, somewhere near the edge of today's 1st green.  In those days, the 18th green was to the right and did not include the Valley of Sin.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Rich, I disagree with your characterisation that there is very little strategy for the elite player. A hole where you simply grab your driver and aim down the middle of the fairway has very little strategy, but that most certainly ain't the 18th at TOC. Options off the tee for the pros include:

--Iron/fairway wood layup, leaving full wedge in
--Driver aimed at the green, trying to get home in one
--Driver aimed just to the left of the green, trying to leave a pitch straight up the bank
--Driver aimed 20-30 yards left of the green, trying to get far enough as to take the Valley of Sin out of play

There are also several options on the second shot - the straightforward pitch is more obvious when the pin is away from the front, of course, but still, I've seen good players putt/chip/pitch the shot in many different ways.

Cheers,
Darren

[ForkaB]

Darren

While there are exceptions, of course, I think most top players these days just bomb it at the left edge of the green.  If they cut it a bit, maybe they'll have a chance for an eagle, if they draw it a bit they have a 30-40 yard shot, which as I said, and you confirmed, does have some strategy involved.  The whole right 1/2 of the combined fairway is effectively out of play.  I can't remember the last time I saw any top player lay up with the hole in its one and only challenging place (just over the VofS), can you?

Rich

[Brian Phillips]

Darren,

I think that Rich is spot on with his opinion on how the Pro would play that hole.

However, who really gives a hoot how the top guys play it when sooo many other normal golfers play it with lots of strategy and hope in their heads everyday of the the year.

Brian

[John Chilver-Stainer]

The Number 18 would stand out anywhere - without the buildings or the preceding 17th Hole.

In fact if it was located with the sea down the right or large sand dunes behind the green it would be incredibly dramatic. Even tree-lined - the undulating fairway and the “corner” green provide a unique character.

Take the view from the Tee a large expanse of green rolling waves with out of bounds on the right. A multiple choice of angles on offer – no bunkers to dictate the line.

It’s all about how you want to play the second shot. If the pin position is in front of the Valley of Sin the choice from the tee starts getting difficult. Go right with the unpredictable lie or left and chip through the valley of sin.

OK in most cases it should be an easy enough Par but the hole challenges you to a birdie. The “corner” green keeps the approach honest and putting down the green is notoriously difficult.

Somehow making Par is almost an anticlimax, almost as if the hole has defied you. It’s a fascinating hole.

Far from medicocre the 18th at the Old Course is a classic.

[Bob_Huntley]

Darren:

I think the 18th at St. Andrews is a very good hole, and an EXCELLENT finishing hole, provided that the conditions are firm and fast.  

Tom,

I would hazard a guess that I may have played the hole more than most here and 98% of the time it is firm and fast. A couple of times the rain had been so heavy that the run-up shot was slowed but it was a rare occasion.

I approach the green with a degree of joy knowing that it is a pretty easy hole to par but also with sadness.... the round is just about over.


Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

For those who reference strategy off the tee, I don't see it.

I see no substantive benefit in playing to the right or near the OB.

The incremental gain is far outweighed by the penalty for erring to the right.

And, once the drive is hit, doesn't Henry Longhurst's description of just scuffling a shot up there sum up the nature of the second shot ?

Taking the hole in it's component parts, how would those who rate the hole # 1 rate the putting surface ?

Highly contoured, sloped, flat ?

Challenging ?  Bland ?   Mediocre ?

[Andrew Summerell]

Patrick,

You have probably played the hole more than I have, but from the times I’ve been there, & do believe it have strategy.

I’ve played it 12 times & have learnt more about how to play the course with each round, not excluding the 18.

I do find the best place to approach from is the right side of the fairway & I have also found putting from the back of the green to a front hole position very difficult.

As far as Longhurst’s quote, how many of us ‘scuffle’ the ball anywhere these days. The bump & run shot is lost to the game in much of the world, so I don’t believe it is an easy shot. I think you will find that quote more to do with Longhurst’s turn of phrase.

I have always found putting challenging on the 18th, even when I’m putting well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andrew,

When playing from the right side, what club do you use to approach the green ?

What club would you use from an equivalent drive to the left ?

[Andrew Summerell]

It always depends on the whether. I have been close enough to chip & run with a 7 iron from only about 30 yards out, but I have also needed a full 7 iron. I have probably not played it enough to have a stock shot for the approach. I have found that it has asked different things of me each time.

For me the approach from the right looks less intimidating & I can get the ball to a front hole position easier from there. I’m a left hander with a draw, so as long as I don’t over do it & go OOB, I have often been on the right side.

I have once been level with the front of the green, but off to the left about 20 yards. In trying to be bold, I ended up letting pitch shot run off the front of the green & end up with 5.

All in all, I’ve had one 3, a bunch of 4’s, a few 5’s & one 6. (My 6 was caused through over aggression as well.)

[Richard Muldoon]

Just guessing here, but I would reckon the scoring average at the last open for the 18th was probably somewhere between 3.5 and 4.
We are talking about the creme de la creme of all golfers(top 0.01%?) on a driveable par four with a 100 yard wide fairway and yet these boys aren't murdering the hole.
Surely there must be something great about the hole.
If it is such a simple hole then how can't they figure out the best way to play it. Or as Rich suggests there is very little strategy for the elite player, then why can't these great players just execute this strategy and bring the hole to its knees.
Oh and wasn't the weather pretty benign last year.
Funny, two players I do remember birdieing it were Jack and Tiger.

[Tom_Doak]

Richard:

The scoring average for the 2005 Open was 3.48 -- a true half par hole!  Eight eagles and only twelve bogeys in 320 rounds of golf.

[Jim Nugent]

Let me ask a parallel question.  Is the 18th at CPC a great hole?

It follows 17 of the most inspiring, spectacular holes on the planet.  The 3 holes immediately preceding it (15, 16, 17) probably stand with any 3-set in the world.  

The entire course is steeped in history.  It's been called the Cystine Chapel of golf courses.  

By some of the criteria that many of you are using to establish 18  TOC as a great hole, isn't 18 CPC also great?    

 

[Bill_McBride]

Let me ask a parallel question.  Is the 18th at CPC a great hole?

It follows 17 of the most inspiring, spectacular holes on the planet.  The 3 holes immediately preceding it (15, 16, 17) probably stand with any 3-set in the world.  

The entire course is steeped in history.  It's been called the Cystine Chapel of golf courses.  

By some of the criteria that many of you are using to establish 18  TOC as a great hole, isn't 18 CPC also great?    

 

Give me a crew of West Virginia tree cutters, a few very sharp Stihl chain saws, a dump truck and a couple of days, and I could make #18 CPC into a first rate hole!

[Sean_A]

For those who reference strategy off the tee, I don't see it.

I see no substantive benefit in playing to the right or near the OB.

The incremental gain is far outweighed by the penalty for erring to the right.

And, once the drive is hit, doesn't Henry Longhurst's description of just scuffling a shot up there sum up the nature of the second shot ?

Taking the hole in it's component parts, how would those who rate the hole # 1 rate the putting surface ?

Highly contoured, sloped, flat ?

Challenging ?  Bland ?   Mediocre ?

Patrick

I didn't watch much of this year's Dunhill Cup, but I did see Ernie aim out to the right and hit a soft draw to about 15 feet above the Sunday hole placement.  It was always my impression that if the pin is on the left than the best chance of getting an eagle is to drive the green hitting a draw.  I can see your point if the hole is near the road.  Despite Rich's opinion, I think front right is a very good hole location as well.

Ciao

[ForkaB]

Sean

I have said over many moons and often that if they transplanted the Valley of Sin to the front right of the 18th (and moved the Sunday pin position to just over it), it would be the world's greatest finishing hole.  As it is, the right pijn position is only of use and used for Japanese tourists.

Rich

PS--you anecdote vis a vis Els just proves why Ernie is the chronic underachiever that he is.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Richard Muldoon,

Scoring has to be viewed in the context of the weather and not just numerically.

Darren,

I've always viewed "strategy" in the context of the lines of play, and not club selection, which, I would view in the context to tactics.

And as such, I don't see a wide array of strategy on that hole.

Rich & Darren,

In light of the fact that the old 18th tee was near the 1st green and the old 18th green was to the right, without the VOS, would there ever be any consideration to:

1  move the VOS right
2  move the green and VOS right

At a depth of approximately 3 feet, how difficult are the shots to negotiate the VOS  ?

Is the feature over rated ?

One might think it is for the following reason.

If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, why haven't we seen this feature more extensively in golf course architecture ?

[Pete Lavallee]

Richard Muldoon,

If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, why haven't we seen this feature more extensively in golf course architecture ?

Because deep depressions don't drain well away from seaside/sandy locations.[/color]

[Rick Shefchik]

If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, why haven't we seen this feature more extensively in golf course architecture ?

That was my thought at the start of this discussion. The golf world -- starting with C. B. Macdonald and Seth Raynor -- has voted on #18 a long time ago. They don't build this hole, and certainly not as an 18th.

Personally, my hat would be off to any architect who finished a new course with an homage to TOC #18, but I don't expect to ever see that. Too bad -- I loved playing #18, and I don't know when I'll get to do it again.

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