[Tim Bert]

Glenn and I are way off in our opinion on this thread.

I'm no great student of golf architecture, but I like it a lot.  I would absolutely love the opportunity to walk some of the great courses that I'm pretty sure I'll never get an opportunity to play.  I think I could simply imagine my round - I'd score better that way!  I could even see myself planning a trip around it, as long as I could sneak in a few rounds at a less famed course.  

I could spend the better part of a day walking around CPC, PV, NGLA, or Augusta without a club in my hand and still leave smiling.  As for the TV coverage, I'd probably tune in for a bit, but get bored with it pretty quickly.  It's a world of difference experiencing it firsthand, in my opinion.  

[Tim_Weiman]

George Pazin:

Thanks for your comments. I do believe if one truly loves golf architecture you have to travel and go way out of your way to see the best examples. Aside from that, I also believe there is a difference between loving golf and being a student of golf architecture. The true student will be quite happy to walk a special course if the option of playing isn't available.

My experience has been that people very quickly sort out who really wants to study a golf course and who is just looking for access. It is a funny thing, the more sincere one is perceived to be as a true student, the more likely one is to be asked to play.

I once visited a very private club with a course generally considered among the top 25 in the U.S. A very prominent member invited me to play and was a bit stunned when I asked him if I could just walk while he played. Besides the dinner invitation I later received and the offer to come back whenever I wanted, I had a great time watching him play and asking him architecture questions along the way.

Pine Valley is obviously a special place, a venue far more people would like to play than those who actually do. I just can't imagine someone who truly loves golf architecture not wanting to walk the place. Call me "stupid", but I just consider Pine Valley worth a visit even if one can't play it.

[TEPaul]

"Call me "stupid", but I just consider Pine Valley worth a visit even if one can't play it."

Tim:

In that case, I guess I could be called incredibly stupid because I once flew from Oregon to LA just to see the 10th at Riviera. In the end I walked the course very slowly starting at daybreak on what turned out to be a glorious morning, talking to the crew and the super every few holes. It was one of my best days ever in architecture. It felt pretty spiritual actually. Coming up 18 I think I caught a quick glimpse of the Captain apace in the distance.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

Very well said.  I especially like this, which echoes what I was saying:


I also believe there is a difference between loving golf and being a student of golf architecture. The true student will be quite happy to walk a special course if the option of playing isn't available.

That is very true.

Forgive me if I'm wrong though, but I do note a tone of condescension in this, especially when you add:


My experience has been that people very quickly sort out who really wants to study a golf course and who is just looking for access.

Please remember that you students of the game are asking for  "access" at these private clubs as well - they are private, and walking them requires every bit the permission that playing them does - in fact it might require more, in a certain way, as liabilities for non-playing accidents involving non-playing visitors might be quite different than guests of the club playing the course.  I know what you mean, and I tend to agree with you... I'm just not liking the tone here.

So peace, OK?  Us lovers of the game who don't profess to be students of architecture sure don't look down on you students... we think you're weird, sure, but in a loveable way.  

The point I am trying to make in all of this is actually pretty light-hearted:  and that is, I love to PLAY the game so much that walking and not playing, especially at all-world courses like Pine Valley, would be a form of torture.  The playing of the game trumps the study that much for me.  

I admire those of you into the study though, I truly do.

So when you say:


Pine Valley is obviously a special place, a venue far more people would like to play than those who actually do. I just can't imagine someone who truly loves golf architecture not wanting to walk the place. Call me "stupid", but I just consider Pine Valley worth a visit even if one can't play it.

all I can say in response is this:  try not to be too condescending to those of us who love playing the game so much more than the esoteric study of the creation of its field of play.  Of course you're not stupid, but neither am I... and I still have very little desire to visit Pine Valley just to walk around and frustrate myself.

I guess the botton line is this:  in no way do I "love" golf architecture.  I just find nothing wrong with this... and I hope you don't either.

TH

[George Pazin]

all I can say in response is this:  try not to be too condescending to those of us who love playing the game so much more than the esoteric study of the creation of its field of play.  Of course you're not stupid, but neither am I... and I still have very little desire to visit Pine Valley just to walk around and frustrate myself.

I guess the botton line is this:  in no way do I "love" golf architecture.  I just find nothing wrong with this... and I hope you don't either.

I don't think Tim's trying to be condescending, he's simply highlighting a difference between points of view. And I think your last statement kind of proves his point - you admit you don't "love" architecture.

Not that there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

George:

You are probably right.  I'm sure not at all condescending toward you wackos who walk courses without playing, so I shouldn't find it in return where it's not warranted.

 

[Glenn Spencer]

Tim,

Are you under the impression that I am looking for access to Pine Valley in some sort of way? You are starting to amaze me with how well you know me. I never called you stupid, I said that you made a stupid comment about my interest in architecture, especially when you don't know me. If you don't see the difference, that is your tough luck.

TH and George,

I think I fall somewhere in between or something. I feel like I only love the game when I am playing somewhere that interests me or something. There are courses that I can't sleep the night before I play them, but there are others that I can't get out of bed to play. If I have played a course and didn't like it, I am not up in arms that I am playing golf the next day. The game itself doesn't do it for me. I need either great architecture or competition to be truly fired up, just playing the game doesn't cut it for me. What am I then? The Devil?

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn:

I knew Satan was lurking on here somewhere... I just had heretofore assumed he was taking the guise of Mucci.  

Hell, you're no different from a lot of golfers - a great course or great competition is the driving force for many, I'd say.  I'm the weird one in that I'll play anywhere any time if I'm allowed to.  BUT that being said, it is great courses and great competition that gets me MOST fired up as well.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn:

I knew Satan was lurking on here somewhere... I just had heretofore assumed he was taking the guise of Mucci.  

Hell, you're no different from a lot of golfers - a great course or great competition is the driving force for many, I'd say.  I'm the weird one in that I'll play anywhere any time if I'm allowed to.  BUT that being said, it is great courses and great competition that gets me MOST fired up as well.

TH

TH,

It is funny that you should say that. I always thought that of Mucci as well, but I just saw on another thread that he apologized to some poor victim. I was impressed by that, but mostly shocked. People like you and a bad course wouldn't be such a bad thing, but Ohio is just not so full of Huckaby's or anything close. In fact, I recently lost one of them to California.

[Tom Huckaby]

Yikes!  Your sending these jerks my way?

 

Just kidding - I get what you're saying, and I do appreciate it.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Yikes!  Your sending these jerks my way?

 

Just kidding - I get what you're saying, and I do appreciate it.

TH

  I would imagine that you guys would really hit it off, he is a classic character. He is someone like you, just really loves to play the game, in fact he even plays it really well, if the money is 'right.' He is in LA now, used to be the assistant at Bel-Air, moved back and is now out there again, but not at Bel-Air. I could send some real jerks that way, but he is not one of them. You are just lucky that I didn't stay in LA, then you would have had a real jerk.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ha!

Note I used to live in LA, now San Jose.  The state would be big enough for the both of us.

 

[Jordan Wall]

Tim,

Are you under the impression that I am looking for access to Pine Valley in some sort of way?

Glenn,

We'd all like to play or see Pine Valley.
There is no hiding that.
Naturally, we would all like to find some kind of access to PV.

However, access can be seeing the course.
Being able to go to and see the course is still access.
Attending the Crump Cup is access.

So, my advice would be to check out the Crump Cup.
It's better than any TV your going to watch.

I hope I will be able to attend the event once, or maybe more.

Jordan

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby,

I never imagined it would sound condescending to express that I find places like Pine Valley worthy of study!

Several years ago I spent a few hours at another highly rated venue with a long time member who had an intimate knowledge of the course, especially the greens.

This was someone who could walk up to a green, drop down a ball and show you four or five ways to make the putt. It was an amazing demonstration of both his knowledge of the greens and the design of the green themselves.

If I had been playing, could I possibly have had as much fun? Or learned as much? Or came away with such a precious memory?

Glenn:

I don't know you or have any idea of your interest in golf architecture, but if you do have an interest in studying golf courses, by all means go and see a Crump Cup. Just seeing Pine Valley is worth it.

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