Golf Club Demographics

[Walter Bart]

Aaron

          A friend told me last week that Turner Hill, in light of their financial/ membership issues,  was waiving initiation fees for next year and looking at $5,000 in dues. Not sure if this is correct, but it might be worth a try

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I just came across this membership plan from a non-equity club in Lakewood, NJ:

FULL INDIVIDUAL MEMBERSHIP:
   
ONE YEAR PLAN:    $4,200
CLUB COMMITMENT PROGRAM, THREE YEAR-PLAN:    
2007    $3,800
2008    $3,950
2009    $4,100

www.woodlakecountryclub.com

[Aaron Katz]

Aaron

          A friend told me last week that Turner Hill, in light of their financial/ membership issues,  was waiving initiation fees for next year and looking at $5,000 in dues. Not sure if this is correct, but it might be worth a try

Wow.  I was waiting for something to happen with Turner Hill like that.  I'll definitely keep my eyes and ears open.  Thanks!

[John Kavanaugh]

Aaron,

One demographic that clubs don't need are just graduated soon to be millionare lawyers who want something before they have earned it.  

[Aaron Katz]

John,

I graduated from law school almost 3 years ago, and I'm not planning on being a millionaire lawyer (indeed, I would not be surprised if my salary this year will be the topping out point for me).  And I take some exception to what seemed very much like a personal attack at me:  I worked my ass off in college and law school, paying my own way through both.  I work my ass off at my current job.  I've never been a member at a private club but rather grew up playing at exclusively two municipal courses designed by your brother.  To the extent I think it would be nice to be a member of a golf club in New England because I want to be part of a true golf community and am interested in finding ways that I can make the financially possible, I hardly think I am worthy of criticism.  

Would it be okay to for me to look at creative ways to finance a club membership if I were 45?  If so, I don't see why I can't do so at my age.  The basic point is that the current price of memberships at clubs in my area approaches the point of absurdity, closing the doors to all but the wealthiest .1%.  And yet the courses can't seem to fill up modest membership rolls, despite having glorious courses.  Why am I to be criticized for wanting to find a middle ground that would benefit all involved?  Between me and nothing, you honestly think that "nothing" is a better asset to a club with a half empty membership roll?

Furthermore, do you feel that private golf clubs are "presents" to people who have spent 20 years building a war chest?  Or should they be communities of people who love golf and want to share that love with others, regardless of age?  

[John Kavanaugh]

Between me and nothing, you honestly think that "nothing" is a better asset to a club with a half empty membership roll?

 

If a club has 300 members and you are offering $600 with no initiation fee and the right to flee at little cost you need to ask the members if it is worth $2 more a month to let a young lawyer in...I would guess not.  

[Aaron Katz]

And would they choose differently if I were a 45-year old schoolteacher?  My guess is that neither my age nor my profession has any bearing on the equation.  And if those things do bear on the equation, then that's not a place I'd want to be a member of anyways.  

In the end, if the market stays firm, then that is fine with me.  I'll continue to play at the superb daily-fee offerings that I have.  

The evidence is in though, John: The way that clubs are currently running their membership policies is not working.  Not enough young blood

[Brian Jones]

Aaron:

I grew up in the Boston area on the south shore and although it's been quite a while since I have lived there I always thought the best deal with all things considered was Plymouth CC.  It is a great Donals Ross course (par 69)with great greens and a ton of good players.  Although I think it is technically semi-private they didn't market it as such and heavily restricted unaccompanied guest play.  In fact, I remeber hearing that they only remained  semi-private for tax reasons of some sort. Anyway, if it is close enough to where you live you should check it out.  Another option is to move to the Southeast like I did where the top tier clubs cost about as much as the mid-tiers in your area and you can play year round.

Good Luck.

[John Kavanaugh]

Aaron,

All you can do is try...I've joined a bunch of clubs and have almost always done it with terms that fit my situation at the time.  I was even turned down once and just found someplace else.  Sounds to me like the Silva club you want to join doesn't need you...You just need to convince them why they do and it won't be through legal mumbo jumbo.

I find your concern about being transfered insulting...I've paid initiation fees and faced illness, I know members that have died...Initiation fees are not for your life..they are for your initial round....one $50,000 round and then the rest for free plus dues.  Just make that first round a doozy.

Why do you think private clubs have membership committees if they don't care how old you are or what you do for a living.  note:  I have never had to meet with a committee and have even told them in the past that I am not interested in them meeting my wife.  It is a funny business.  note:  Until this exact moment I had you confused with the Sebonack basher...that's Alex..oops.  The golf world is amazingly small...Give them a reason to want you and you can write your own ticket.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Seems like this thread has little to do with golf club demographics.  Glad my clubs does not need to accept people that are going to show up with a lawyer in an attempt to negotiate a better deal.

[ChasLawler]

Aaron,

All you can do is try...I've joined a bunch of clubs and have almost always done it with terms that fit my situation at the time.  I was even turned down once and just found someplace else.  Sounds to me like the Silva club you want to join doesn't need you...You just need to convince them why they do and it won't be through legal mumbo jumbo.

I find your concern about being transfered insulting...I've paid initiation fees and faced illness, I know members that have died...Initiation fees are not for your life..they are for your initial round....one $50,000 round and then the rest for free plus dues.  Just make that first round a doozy.

Why do you think private clubs have membership committees if they don't care how old you are or what you do for a living.  note:  I have never had to meet with a committee and have even told them in the past that I am not interested in them meeting my wife.  It is a funny business.  note:  Until this exact moment I had you confused with the Sebonack basher...that's Alex..oops.  The golf world is amazingly small...Give them a reason to want you and you can write your own ticket.

Aaron - John makes a great point. Have you actually approached any of these clubs with your "eminently reasonable" proposal?

[Aaron Katz]

No, I have not.  My proposal was a hypothetical one.  Obviously I'm looking first for a club whose own initial offer comes close to that kind of proposal.  But from my candid conversations with a couple of membership directors, I do feel there is a willingness to create some sort of mutually beneficial deal that makes sense for both parties.    

I also don't think I have ever proposed an intention to get a club to bargain with me.  I'm not a bargainer by nature (despite what my job might suggest), and I certainly don't want to come in and insult a membership director.  Rather, the thread was supposed to be about golf club demographics.  My "proposal" was an attempt to describe the type of deal that I think a club should offer if it hopes to attract junior/associate members, which virtually every club professes a desire to do.  

[Dan_Callahan]

If you're able to negotiate a better deal, more power to you. I don't see why you need to take criticism for mentioning it. Golf numbers are dwindling, people come on this site and lament all the course closings, yet I haven't read any proposed solutions.

I think your initial thoughts about demographics are correct, especially for those of us with young families. If you live in an area with bad public schools, it's $20k for private grade school and close to $40k for private high school. Those are today's numbers. In 10 years, that high school tuition will probably be more like $75k. That's $300k for four years of high school. Multiplied by 3 kids (which I have) and you're on the hook for $1 million. And we aren't even talking college yet.

Easy to see why young parents aren't willing to plunk down $50k on an initiation fee that they will probably lose if they take a new job somewhere else. That same $50k in a 529 might actually cover the cost of a month of college one day.

[Chris Cupit]

Aaron,

From an owner/operator of a private club here is some (unsolicited) advice:

Be careful about going to a private club and trying to negotiate with them.  Even if you made the most reasonable offer that was truly a "win-win" and even if they accepted, you may see a backlash in how you are treated.

It would be 100% wrong, but red flags would go up at once if someone came to me and wanted a "deal".  My pricing is very affordable and I do not "deal" but make clear that my best price is what I have published.  Even if the "dealer" paid my price I couldn't help but admit that I would be suspicious of the guy and think that he/she may be more trouble than he/she is worth.

Also, unlike my situation where there is one person deciding who gets in, I would think it's real hard for a traditional board run club to make private deals with individuals.  They best course of action might be to see if a friend who was already a member could quietly lobby the board to be more proactive in attracting younger members.  (And then if the come up with better pricing, let them know about a great candidate)!

I can tell you that your comment about clubs being communities of people who love golf and want to share that love with others is right on--it's a shame clubs are sometimes perceived as good or great because of their fees instead of their course/people.

Good luck in your quest.