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Brian Joines

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What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« on: October 30, 2006, 02:24:59 PM »
Are there courses that a student of architecture must see?

What courses offer the most important examples or features of classic or modern architecture?


I will nominate Yeaman's Hall Club. I have not played there but reading Ran's review definitely makes me think it would be a GCA must.

What others?
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John Kavanaugh

Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 02:29:19 PM »
I think this can and should be accomplished at only public courses..or semi-private.  
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2006, 02:35:19 PM »
Brian

I'm curious why you choose Yeamans Hall as opposed to other Macdonald/Raynor courses such as Chicago Golf, NGLA, Shoreacres, Yale, Fishers Island etc.?  Ran wrote equally stellar reviews of those courses.
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Dave_Miller

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2006, 02:36:47 PM »
Quote from: Brian Joines on October 30, 2006, 02:24:59 PM
Are there courses that a student of architecture must see?

What courses offer the most important examples or features of classic or modern architecture?


I will nominate Yeaman's Hall Club. I have not played there but reading Ran's review definitely makes me think it would be a GCA must.

What others?


Brian:
Every Golf Course :)
Best
Dave
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Gary Slatter

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2006, 02:41:24 PM »
I agree, every course, see if you can tell a poser from the real thing.
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Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2006, 02:48:46 PM »
Brian,  Yeaman’s Hall is pretty good but is way down the list of “must plays”.
While it is not feasible to play courses in some kind of chronological order, let me list some that way.

The Old Course, Prestwick, and North Berwick have many holes that have served as templates by architects from the time they were designed.  Move from there to other great links courses in Britain and Ireland.  I would then move inland to some of the first great inland courses, beginning with Walton Heath and Sunningdale.  

In the US,  National Golf Links, may be the single most important course to  play.  It was our first great course and CB Mac transposed many Scottish holes to his course.  A second might be Pine Valley.

Then I think if you want a broad spectrum, I would try to discover the courses that best represent different architects.  For instance, Cypress Point or even Alwoodley in England.  for Alistair MacKenzie.  Plainfield and Pinehurst #2 for Ross. And so on.
I’d do the same for Seth Raynor Yeaman's Hall is fine, Flynn all the way up to Mike Strantz , Doak, etc.

Obviously, access to theses great courses is difficult if you don’t know someone.
Nonetheless, it is still possible to study these courses from books etc.  It may not be the best way to go about it but it is better than nothing.

   
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Philippe Binette

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2006, 02:56:52 PM »
About any links course in Scotland.... even the bad one are good and FUN
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Adam Clayman

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2006, 03:16:11 PM »
Philippe-
 The same is true in the USA.

Something can be learned from almost every course. The ones that have the most mistakes (bad ideas) are just as educational as the greats. Maybe more so.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brian Joines

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2006, 04:13:16 PM »
Quote from: Geoffrey Childs on October 30, 2006, 02:35:19 PM
Brian

I'm curious why you choose Yeamans Hall as opposed to other Macdonald/Raynor courses such as Chicago Golf, NGLA, Shoreacres, Yale, Fishers Island etc.?  Ran wrote equally stellar reviews of those courses.

The were a couple reasons I mentioned Yeaman's Hall, the main reason being the success of the restoration. If you can see pictures and read about the state of the course prior to the restoration, there is a lot to be learned. The course contains examples of most of Raynor's classic holes and features just like he laid them out many years ago.

I also like the idea of being able to play the same ball for an entire round. The design of Yeamans (much like Pinehurst #2) challenges the golfer without hazards such as water, native grasses or OB. That is something you don't see too often and it's a shame.

I actually started this thread after doing a little research on some of the courses in SC for a trip in 2 weeks. After reading Ran's review on Yeaman's, I thought it would be a great course to not only play but to learn. I started this thread to hear what other courses you all think fit the same bill.

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John Kavanaugh

Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2006, 04:28:49 PM »
Quote from: Brian Joines on October 30, 2006, 04:13:16 PM


I actually started this thread after doing a little research on some of the courses in SC for a trip in 2 weeks. After reading Ran's review on Yeaman's, I thought it would be a great course to not only play but to learn. I started this thread to hear what other courses you all think fit the same bill.



Brian,

What else have you done with your life to make us believe you are a "student of architecture".  Tell you what...If you can't get on Yeaman's I will be happy to pay for your greenfees at Hotchkiss...a nice Raynor course deserving of study.  btw...What makes you think Yeaman's is a successful restoration as you say that is the "main" reason you choose this course...and why are you scared of losing a ball when so many free ones wait to be picked. (I never pick up a misfit ball when out on a course but have never failed to see more than I lose.)
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Brian Phillips

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2006, 05:15:24 PM »
Brian,

This was a HUGE discussion on my masters in Edinburgh.  Should we be studying the links courses and looking at fantastic holes that really 90% of them cannot be re done or used as ideas on a modern course ...or...should we be studying the the new modern courses to find out what can be done...and improved?

Who is more important to study...Old Tom Morris or Pete Dye?  James Braid or Robert Trent Jones?  Colt or Nicklaus?

You decide.

Brian
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Garland Bayley

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2006, 05:16:29 PM »
Once the must plays are decided, you must walk the course while playing!
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brian Joines

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2006, 05:18:17 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on October 30, 2006, 04:28:49 PM
Quote from: Brian Joines on October 30, 2006, 04:13:16 PM


I actually started this thread after doing a little research on some of the courses in SC for a trip in 2 weeks. After reading Ran's review on Yeaman's, I thought it would be a great course to not only play but to learn. I started this thread to hear what other courses you all think fit the same bill.



Brian,

What else have you done with your life to make us believe you are a "student of architecture".  Tell you what...If you can't get on Yeaman's I will be happy to pay for your greenfees at Hotchkiss...a nice Raynor course deserving of study.  btw...What makes you think Yeaman's is a successful restoration as you say that is the "main" reason you choose this course...and why are you scared of losing a ball when so many free ones wait to be picked. (I never pick up a misfit ball when out on a course but have never failed to see more than I lose.)

I'm not sure what you need to do with your life to be considered a "student of architecture" other than to study/learn about architecture. What else are you looking for?

Like I said, I haven't played Yeaman's. I submitted the suggestion based on what I've read and everything I have read has been very positive.

Ran's opening statement in the course review was:

"The ongoing transformation of Yeamans Hall that commenced in the late 1980s and continues to this day is one of the most remarkable ones in golf and deserves to be understood and appreciated."

I was pretty much reiterating that point. The course seems like a great showcase of classic architecture, a successful restoration and a good test of golf.

As far as losing golf balls, I have good reason to be scared. I left plenty of "misfit" balls in the woods and leaf piles at the Indiana Univ. course yesterday.

BTW, Hotchkiss certainly looks deserving of study. I don't see myself getting to that part of CT anytime soon but if I do, I'll mail you the bill!
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John Kavanaugh

Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2006, 05:21:06 PM »
Sometimes Ran is wrong and it is rude to pick up misfit balls..
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Joe Hancock

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2006, 05:26:13 PM »
Have you an idea of what you're trying to learn? I know for myself, I am not capable of learning ALL there is to know about this stuff. If you choose a specific feature/method/architect, it may be easier to develop this list of yours.

Or, if you don't care about being recognized as some sort of expert, just take the learning opportunities as they present themselves through life.

Whatever your motivations, the key to learning is to have a purpose.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Brian Joines

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2006, 05:28:07 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on October 30, 2006, 05:21:06 PM
Sometimes Ran is wrong and it is rude to pick up misfit balls..

Is he wrong in this case?
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Brian Phillips

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2006, 05:46:52 PM »
Brian,

Don't let anyone not even John K let you decide that.  Go look yourself and then decide.....no one is wrong...well..., apart from John K...and Rich G now and then.. ;D
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 05:47:44 PM by Brian Phillips »
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

cary lichtenstein

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2006, 05:55:45 PM »
Go to the Golf Magazine Website and click on top 100 courses you can play. Play the top 50 or 60, and ask the question again and we will cull the list for you.

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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Joe Hancock

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2006, 05:59:17 PM »
Quote from: cary lichtenstein on October 30, 2006, 05:55:45 PM
Go to the Golf Magazine Website and click on top 100 courses you can play. Play the top 50 or 60, and ask the question again and we will cull the list for you.



True. The only way you can truly appreciate golf architecture is to be rich...
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2006, 06:18:47 PM »
NGLA, Merian, SFGC or Fenway if you are Geoffrey Childs, Shinnecock, Prairie Dunes, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Cypress Point, N. Berwick, Prestwick, Royal Dornoch, Royal County Down, Rye, Pinehurst #2, Augusta National, any one or two of a dozen courses in the London area, TOC, TOC, TOC and my new addition Painswick
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2006, 06:20:44 PM »
Quote from: Brian Joines on October 30, 2006, 04:13:16 PM
Quote from: Geoffrey Childs on October 30, 2006, 02:35:19 PM
Brian

I'm curious why you choose Yeamans Hall as opposed to other Macdonald/Raynor courses such as Chicago Golf, NGLA, Shoreacres, Yale, Fishers Island etc.?  Ran wrote equally stellar reviews of those courses.

The were a couple reasons I mentioned Yeaman's Hall, the main reason being the success of the restoration. If you can see pictures and read about the state of the course prior to the restoration, there is a lot to be learned. The course contains examples of most of Raynor's classic holes and features just like he laid them out many years ago.

I also like the idea of being able to play the same ball for an entire round. The design of Yeamans (much like Pinehurst #2) challenges the golfer without hazards such as water, native grasses or OB. That is something you don't see too often and it's a shame.

I actually started this thread after doing a little research on some of the courses in SC for a trip in 2 weeks. After reading Ran's review on Yeaman's, I thought it would be a great course to not only play but to learn. I started this thread to hear what other courses you all think fit the same bill.



Brian

There are still many bunkers from Raynor's plan (as seen in the locker room) that the membership has declined to reintroduce.  The greens were all rebuilt to what Tom Doak and Jim Urbina's best guess as to what the were originally contoured so while they are excellent, they are not original Raynor.

If you ask Tom Doak I think he will say that Camargo is the best restored Raynor.   Recently, in Wisconsin, Pete Dye told me emphatically that Camargo is Raynor's best.  

If you want a trip back in time and a setting and experience that is unique then Yeamans Hall is it.  If you want to study the architecture of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks, I think there are better places.
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Jim Nugent

Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2006, 09:58:30 PM »
How about heading to Australia, where there are some fantastic courses, and access is not so hard, I hear.  Same with England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.  
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John_Conley

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2006, 10:46:24 PM »
Here are some suggestions.  As long as you know what you are looking for when you play them I'll assume you would learn something about golf architecture.

All are in the US, reasonably accessible, and not too costly.

Lawsonia Links (Wisconsin)
Bethpage - Black (New York)
Cuscowilla (Georgia)
Wilmington Municipal (North Carolina)
Pacific Grove Municipal (California)

If you amp up the green fee you can see the following.

Bandon Dunes/Bandon Trails/Pacific Dunes (Oregon)
Pebble Beach/Spyglass Hill (California)
Pinehurst #2 (North Carolina)
Whistling Straits/Blackwolf Run (Wisconsin)
World Woods (Florida)
Pasatiempo (California)

If you can access college courses you may wish to include these.

Ohio State - Scarlet
Taconic (Williams College)
The Orchards (Mount Holyoke)
Stanford
University of Michigan

I don't know that there are blanket "must plays", but rather a long list of things worthy of seeing.  Of course, if you are in the vicinity of some they would be "must plays" given that you are already there.
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T_MacWood

Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2006, 06:44:39 AM »
Several years ago - I think it was in celebartion of American golf's 100 year aniversary - the question was posed to a panel of three or four experts (Pete Dye, Tom Doak and I can't remember the other person). They identified these 11 courses in the US:

ANGC, Chicago, The Country Club, Garden City, Merion, National, Oakmont, Pinehurst #2, Riviera, Shinnecock and Shoreacres.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 06:45:20 AM by Tom MacWood »
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Dan Boerger

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Re:What courses are "must-plays" for a student of architecture.
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2006, 08:24:02 AM »
I'm kind of surprised they didn't mention Pine Valley in that list. From all that I've read and heard, it was pretty much without precedent when it was built. -Dan
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"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain
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