[Tommy Williamsen]

Why does Anderson use Nicklaus it seems to the exclusion of others?  Desert MT is almost a shrine to Nicklaus.

[Tom_Doak]

He has stuck with Jack because he likes Jack's work, and because the real estate has been selling well throughout.

Good for him.  I wish more clients would stick with the architect who has done an excellent first course, instead of following the prevailing wisdom of gathering more names for marketing purposes.  Doing a second 18 holes at the same site encourages architects to be more creative and break away from their standard stuff ... which we need more of.  On the contrary, a resort with a Nicklaus course and a Fazio course and a Dye course is likely to be somewhat generic.

[JESII]

Whatever the opposite of self-serving is, that comment by you Tom is certainly it.....or does Mike Keiser fall under a different category?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tom, I have not played the newer course at Sonewall but liked the work on your first course.  Did you intentionally try to do something different there?  
I had not thought about the need to be varied in the architects approach if he designs multiple courses at the same location.  I have only played three of the courses at Desert Mt. but they seem similar in style.

[Matt_Ward]

I take the different view then Tom D takes although the model followed by Lyle Anderson can't be knocked from a $$ perspective.

The issue for me is the differentiation of the "brand" (golf courses) that come forward. If the same designer does them you then get in the position of having people favor "one" of the efforts over the others that do come forward. I mean if one is ideed that much better than the rest - how do you then build up momentum for the remaining courses?

In the case of DM -- I always find the Apache to be the odd-man out and to a lesser degree Renegade and Cochise. My favorites include Chirichua and Outlaw - although I did really like Geronimo in its original form before the changes to #13 and #14.

Having the same designer may work in a number of ways but from the concept of pure branding the model followed by Mike Keiser is the one I personally see as the way to go.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy W:  The two courses at Stonewall are intentionally very different.  The newer course has larger, wilder greens and the holes hit the property in a much different way ... partly due to the fact that we started with Tom Fazio's routing for the first 18.  There have been other threads about the North course, so I won't elaborate, but I think any of the gentlemen from Philadelphia who have played both courses would back me up on that.

What are the best 36-hole complexes in the world?  Royal Melbourne, Winged Foot, Baltusrol, and all the older ones had the same designer do both 18's, and they turned out just fine.

[Matt_Ward]

The issue presented here was not two (2) courses but multiple courses as in the case of Lyle Anderson.

I believe Mike Keiser understands that quite well / re: branding and the silly contention that different architects would downplay the others work at the same facility doesn't hold a drop of water to me.

If so -- maybe Tom D can let us know what words he has used to "bad mouth" the other layouts at Bandon Dunes.

[Greg Tallman]

Matt - I have removed the post but believe me that it happens all too frequently and in some rather strange situations. Do you honestly doubt that this is prevelant?

None of the designers at Bandon would be included to my knowledge. Keiser might well have considered such when choosing his teams.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lyle Anderson has seen the best and certainly less than the best in the Real Esate markets. I think over his career Jack has been the best Real Estate selling name in the business. Fazio is there now as well. I think based on conversations with his son, they feel he is a significant factor in their brand and esablishment of value in their projects.

[Gary Slatter]

Maybe because he tried Weiskopf once?

[Jerry Kluger]

It would be hard to imagine Keiser bringing in Fazio, Rees Jones or Jack Nicklaus(Pre DR and Sebonack) to do a course - I would guess that he was confident that TD and C&C would continue with the spirit of what he had in mind.

[cary lichtenstein]

I see a certain sameness to the Anderson/Nicklaus courses, am I alone in this view?

[Bill_McBride]

I see a certain sameness to the Anderson/Nicklaus courses, am I alone in this view?

How many would you care to walk?

[JESII]

I have not played any of the Desert Mountain courses, but I think they must have served their purpose pretty damn well. Any disagreements to that? I hope this does not turn into a Jackbash.

[Matt_Ward]

Greg:

Try to understand this OK -- is anything possible when dealing with human beings. Yes, it is.

However, you ask me / others to "believe" you? OK -- can you cite some specifics to back up your contention or is it nothing more than a hunch or feel on your part?

You then tell me that such situations are "prevalent." Again, what I, you or others think is one thing -- what can definitely be proven is quite another. You might just give that some reflection.


Cary:

You see a likeness at DM ? Really ?

Tell me how Geronimo has anything in common with Cochise? Or how Apache has comonality with the likes of Chirichua or better yet Outlaw. While I will admit that all of the courses at the facility are not equals in terms of design uniqueness -- there are major design elements with a few of them that are either partially non-existent or totally non-existent with the others.

On this one, from my perspective Cary -- you are alone on this one good buddy.

[Greg Tallman]

Matt, Thank you for the spelling correction.

It is not a hunch.. speaking from first hand experience though it would not be prudent to discuss specific companies or individuals nor would it serve any useful purpose.

It is no different than politics... it is politics.

Heck we have trouble on this site discussing the talents of one without using some form of comparison that evolves into what amounts to a condemnation of someone.  
 

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

The most famous example of architects at the same facility taking potshots at one another is that of Greg Norman and Peter Thomson / Mike Wolveridge, who did so as part of a documentary produced BY THE CLUB to market The National Golf & CC in Australia -- and which was shown on TV in Australia.  They took turns taking thinly veiled swipes at each other's silliness.

There are certainly other examples.  They aren't prevalent because most of them are quickly swept under the rug and forgotten.  But they're out there.

[Matt_Ward]

Greg:

I agree with your last sentence. Too often the personal gets interjected into the substance when people do weigh the merits of a course. Sacred cows do in fact exist.

However, making broad charges and failing (for whatever reason) to give some real juice to the initial statement only makes the person stating such a claim look either baseless or gutless. I can certainly appreciate the sensitivities you highlighted and it's best to simply move on and only deal with the specifics tied to respective courses.

Robust discussion of various courses and the designers need not be twisted into non-germane comments. That's my hope anyway.

[Greg Tallman]

Matt - Gutless as charged. Without the willingness to name names there was no reason to bring it up.

[Tony Petersen]

Having spent the last 4 winters at Desert Mountain, I can tell you that alot of the members join Desert Mountain for 2 reasons:

1. Jack is the designer of all 6 courses... The "Nicklaus Signature Collection" as they like to refer too it...

2. Location. Bottom line is Desert Mountain is absolutely beautiful as far as arid regions go... The flora and fauna, coupled with the geography, make for a sort of eden...

I can also tell you that alot of the members after being at Desert Mountain wish that other designers had been brought in... Bottom line is Outlaw is the BEST Jack course that I have ever played, though I doubt that he had very little to do with the finished product... But, can you imagine what Spahn, Hanse, Doak, C & C, etc. could have done on the same site One will never know, but the possibilities were endless

Either way, as far as Desert golf goes, it really doesn't get any better than Desert Mountain. True, Desert Forest is a gem, Apache Stonghold has potential (when there's grass to be played on ), Blackstone is a nice change and the new C & C at We Ko Pa looks like some serious fun to be had. Still, if you take into consideration the new school of AZ clubs (Mirabel, Whisper Rock, Estancia, Silverleaf, GC of Scottsdale) they are all good, but Desert Mountain offers the same quality of golf (if not better) with a choice of 6 courses!!!  

[JWL]

If you would be so kind, I would really be interested in learning
about what makes you think the site offered "possibilities that were endless" and what the allstar cast might have done so much better.

More than one person has posted that this was some incredible site.  I beg to differ, and would even say it was a difficult site especially where the narrow wetland crossings were located, along with the awkward configuration of the parcel.  

I am glad that you enjoyed the course.   BTW, nothing on the surface of the ground at Outlaw was not designed and/or reviewed and approved by Jack.   That is the protocol on all Nicklaus Signature Designs.

 

[Greg Tallman]

JWL... How is your phone? Look for me on the tube Thursday night. Pull this one out and we'll see Bowman's Bucks in January!

[Matt_Ward]

comtngolf :

I too am a big fan of Outlaw -- save for the harshness of the approach to the 10th hole. The layout is well done and I salute Jack and his team for the superb layout there. Too many people simply believe Desert Forest is the only place that really embodies desert golf. That's not the case for me.

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