[Paul_Turner]

I'm not sure if Sunningdale's "Bottle" hole has ever been anlaysed or drawn?  

CB Macdonald admired the hole and his 8th hole at The National was inspired by it.



First is a pretty bad pic looking back on the 12th hole. The hole is in transition.  It's being remodelled by Harry Colt.   Colt's green is in the foreground and Parks is short and left of it, you can just make out the flag.

I don't have a date for this photo and I'm not sure if Macdonald saw it in this phase or as Park designed the hole.  The photo must be in the 1901-1910 time frame.

Anyway, if you look back you can see the ditch/dyke that crosses diagonally and creates the "Bottle" effect which I believe is what CBM descibes in his book.



Here is a later drawing (1920s or 1930s) that shows Colt's hole.  I have attempted to draw roughly, in pink, what Park's hole would have been like.

Notice that in the fairway, the Dyke has been filled in.  The hole is basically like this today.



Finally a photo at a date between the two above.  Park's green is gone.  The heather has been allowed to grow in from the right (playing direction) and the Dyke has been filled in on the left hand portion of the fairway(playing direction).

NB Above...Joshua Crane the father of all course rankers, is assigning a score of 8.7645 to the 12th  

I wonder which green Macdonald saw?   The Colt green is raised up on a knob so it's more like the 8th at NGLA, Park's green is fairway level.

Would the 12th have been better if they had kept the diagonal Dyke and the bottle effect?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

In what year did Colt's green come into play ?

The highly elevated 8th at NGLA would lead me to believe that CBM saw Colt's green, but, that could be confirmed or disputed if we knew when Colt's green was in play.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

On another thread I asked what exactly the "bottle neck" effect or concept apparently created by the "Principles Nose" bunker on NGLA's #8 is supposted to accomplish strategically and particularly for whom?

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

I have always assumed that Macdonald saw Colt's version of the Bottle hole, that it was the line of cross bunkers short of the green which were responsible for the name, and that Willie Park's hole didn't have those?

[TEPaul]

I believe George Bahto made the distinction in his book but the "Bottle" hole name is something of a misnomer anyway. It should be more appropriately called the "Bottleneck" hole because essentially that's what the strategic concept was supposed to accomplish.

But in my opinion, the "Principle's Nose" bunker type and style can be used in any number of ways. It is of a size and dimension---eg fairly small and roundish with 2-3 bunkers in a basic mound effect to be used wonderfully well in any number of Max Behr "line of charm" ways.

In other words if the LZ of a hole for good players is 150 yards from a green then put a PN bunker in that position in the middle of a wide fairway, not 75-80 yards from the green where it never comes into play for their tee shot or approach shot. I can see it perhaps somewhat blinding a green or whatever if they're behind it and perhaps 70 yards from it but that's of somewhat limited strategic effectiveness in my book.

[Bill_McBride]

I believe George Bahto made the distinction in his book but the "Bottle" hole name is something of a misnomer anyway. It should be more appropriately called the "Bottleneck" hole because essentially that's what the strategic concept was supposed to accomplish.

But in my opinion, the "Principle's Nose" bunker type and style can be used in any number of ways. It is of a size and dimension---eg fairly small and roundish with 2-3 bunkers in a basic mound effect to be used wonderfully well in any number of Max Behr "line of charm" ways.

In other words if the LZ of a hole for good players is 150 yards from a green then put a PN bunker in that position in the middle of a wide fairway, not 75-80 yards from the green where it never comes into play for their tee shot or approach shot. I can see it perhaps somewhat blinding a green or whatever if they're behind it and perhaps 70 yards from it but that's of somewhat limited strategic effectiveness in my book.

Great point!  The Principal's Nose bunkers at The Old Course affect the play of the hole a lot more than those at Yale or NGLA.  I've always loved Jack Nicklaus' comment that the play to the right of the PN at TOC #16 is "strictly for amateurs!"

[wsmorrison]

"The Principal's Nose bunkers at The Old Course affect the play of the hole a lot more than those at Yale or NGLA."

I don't think the Principal's Nose bunkers at Yale or NGLA are that much less in play as compared to The Old Course.  For what sort of golfer is the Principal's Nose at TOC a factor in the modern game?  From the daily tees, it is only about 180 yards to the bunker complex.  Even with a steady head wind that isn't much of an issue.  From the tips (at least when I was last there) it cannot be more than an additional 35 yards for a total of 215 to reach and 240 to carry.

In addition, I don't really understand why Nicklaus calls play to the right side of the Principal's Nose "strictly for amateurs."  I believe it yields a better approach angle and it certainly is shorter.  Given the nearby OB, I would think better players would hit right of the bunker complex.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Until perhaps the last 10-15 years an actual 240 yard carry would pretty much get the attention of just about all golfers and even a significant slice of very good ones. The exponential effect on this very subject in the last 10-15 years is remarkable.

We think total distance has spiked significantly in the last 10-15 years for high swing speed players and of course it has, but what has spiked a lot more than just the total distance increase in the last 10-15 years is the increase in how far some of these elite players CARRY the ball these days compared to just 10-15 years ago.

It's all about trajectory these days not necessarily an increase in clubhead speed or inital velocity. The trajectory today off drivers of many of these good players looks something like a 300 yard wedge shot.

Just 10-15 years ago when all good high swing speed players were using high spin rate golf balls the trajectory off most all drivers looked something like a lear jet taking off.

That old trajectory versus the one most all of them have today is like looking at night and day.

With the same MPH clubhead speed a 110-120+ mph player is probably generating 25-45 yards more carry distance than they used to not much more than a decade ago.

That kind of thing (massive CARRY distance increase) can alone obsolete all kinds of architecture and strategies in a heartbeat.

Believe me, I do know the difference as I see it every time I officiate an elite player tourney, and I remember well the way the really long players' trajectories off drivers were just a decade ago. It was absolutely nothing like it is today.

I first recognized this extrapolated effect on carry distance about 6-7 years ago when I was officiating the PA Amateur. I was watching one of the best and longest players in the state tee off on the first hole of the tournament.

He has a beautiful swing and so I was just watching that and his finish. I noticed he looked immediately almost straight up in the air and I asked him if he popped it up. He said no he didn't it was just that he now got his drives so high so fast that his ball was a million miles in the air as soon as he could pick up sight of it.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

I agree with you, I don't think that the PN feature at Yale or NLGA is intended for the drive.

The "Real" PN feature is found on Double Plateau holes, 60-80 yards from the green at # 11 at NGLA and # 17 at Yale.

It would be interesting to see if the PN feature on # 8 was original or added subsequently.

What's also interesting is George Bahto's contention that the original 8th tee was to the left of the 7th green and much closer to the green.

If one looks at the configuration of the centerline bunkers from the perspective of the left side, shorter tee, the PN feature is merely an extention of the centerline bunker complex.

One also has to examine the complex in the context of the topography, once past the initial complex which is uphill in nature, the ground levels off and then descends, so perhaps the PN feature was the last line of defense, since it's in the downhill portion of the fairway, which also cants from high left to low right, thus explaining the offset nature of the PN feature.

One should also view PN complexes in the context of  a feature used for visually blocking the green.

If you remove the subsequently added protective road berms and view the hole from the hollow where most tee shots end up, the PN complex served to confuse and intimidate the golfer when they hit their approach shot to the green.

[Paul_Turner]

Paul,

In what year did Colt's green come into play ?

The highly elevated 8th at NGLA would lead me to believe that CBM saw Colt's green, but, that could be confirmed or disputed if we knew when Colt's green was in play.

Unfortunately I don't have that date.  When did Macdonald tour Britain?  Was it about 1903?

[Paul_Turner]

Paul:

On another thread I asked what exactly the "bottle neck" effect or concept apparently created by the "Principles Nose" bunker on NGLA's #8 is supposted to accomplish strategically and particularly for whom?

Tom

I think the Dyke in the drawing above plays somewhat similarly to the bunker complex, including the PN on NGLA's 8th.  You have to drive into a bottle neck to get closer to the green, unless you're willing to carry the Dyke/Bunker Complex.

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne:

Regarding the Principal's Nose, the best line of attack on the 16th at St. Andrews is from OVER the bunkers (and the Deacon Sime) or from very close to them.  MacKenzie wrote about that in The Spirit of St. Andrews.

Last year in the Dunhill I went to the right ... I'm an amateur, but after blocking two balls OB at 14, I figured I had the right side down pat.  Anyway, I was in the slot maybe 30-40 yards past the PN, and had a very difficult angle, because of the triangular projection of the plateau at the front right of the green.  If I'd been twenty yards left it would have been a much easier shot, but of course then I'd probably have wound up in one of the bunkers.

[Paul_Turner]

Paul:

I have always assumed that Macdonald saw Colt's version of the Bottle hole, that it was the line of cross bunkers short of the green which were responsible for the name, and that Willie Park's hole didn't have those?

Tom

If someone could post Macdonald's quote on the Bottle hole strategy then we'd probably know.  From memory I think he was concerned with the drive.  That's why I focussed on the diagonal Dyke.

I'm assuming that the chain of bunkers are Colt and not Park because they make no sense with Park's green.  

For Colt's hole the bunker chain is a cool feature.  In its day the hole was a v.long 2 shotter and that chain of bunkers was mostly there to challenge the average player to place his tee shot close to the dog leg corner so he could guarantee getting over the chain.  The top class player could ignore the bunkers after a good drive down the left, but the raised green site is challenging enough anyway.  And even a good player would have to take the bunkers into consideration if he was approaching from an iffy lie in the heather.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

CBM toured overseas in 1902, 1903 and 1904.

CBM also states that he'd make the 1st hole on his ideal golf course a bottle hole.

His notes state:

"Similar to the bottle hole at Sunningdale, placing deep graduated bunkers in place of ditch and bunker the green properly"

But, again, there's far more to the "Bottle" hole than the bunker complex.

The width, elevation and slope of the bisected fairway are critical elements in one's strategy and play.

The left side fairway is narrower, higher and probably flatter than the wider, lower, sloped right side.

While the left side is harder to hit, it offers the better angle of attack into the green, so, it's not just that the fairway is divided, but, the respective configurations of the two fairways and the risk/reward associated with choosing one versus the other.

With the wind at Bandon, this would appear to be a perfect hole to select for the project

[Bill_McBride]

When I was at the Open in 2005, the players were NOT carrying the Principal's Nose at #16, the tee was WAY back and they were mostly short and mostly left of the bunkers.

Since Tom Doak is correct that the shot from right of the PN is impacted by the green shaping, maybe Nicklaus meant the play to the right is "strictly for amateurs" for two reasons: the RR line and OB so close on that side, and the difficult angle into that side of the 2/16 green complex.

[wsmorrison]

Regarding the 16th at TOC, I took a close look at our own Rich Goodale's book "Experience the Old Course," and still believe that the right side of the PN is the often the correct angle to come in from despite Jack Nicklaus's proclamation that it is for amateurs.  While some pin positions are receptive from the left (notably front right pins), I think a majority of the green is better accessed from the right.

Pg. 101 in Rich's book shows that the left rough has grown in towards the right negating a shot to the left of the hazard complex  beyond 255 yards.  I didn't realize before consulting his photograph that the new back tee is a full 52 yards behind the tee I usually play.  From the rear tee the PN is 254 yards to reach and about 274 yards to carry...not hard for most of today's touring pros, but as Tom Doak mentioned, the threat of the Deacon Sime bunker over the PN is a real one.

The real play today from the back tees is to lay up before the PN or play down the right side.  For most of us that do not or rarely play from the medal tee, the best angle in is still probably the right side so as not to bring OB right and Grant's and Wig bunkers into play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

With respect to the 16th at TOC, and driving to the right of the PN complex, many have said that the reward is not commensurate with the risk.

In addition, I would imagine that direction of the wind might influence some.

With all of the "safe" fairway left, why ruin a good round by fooling with the out of bounds so close to the right and the PN on the left ?

Many advise on playing at the right hand steeple, toward the little white house.

All of this depends upon the yardage from which you play and discuss the hole.  It certainly differs from 380 versus 425+.

If the area left of the PN complex was grown as rough, that would certainly change things in direct proportion to the severity of the rough.

[Paul_Turner]

Paul Turner,

CBM toured overseas in 1902, 1903 and 1904.

CBM also states that he'd make the 1st hole on his ideal golf course a bottle hole.

His notes state:

"Similar to the bottle hole at Sunningdale, placing deep graduated bunkers in place of ditch and bunker the green properly"

But, again, there's far more to the "Bottle" hole than the bunker complex.

The width, elevation and slope of the bisected fairway are critical elements in one's strategy and play.

The left side fairway is narrower, higher and probably flatter than the wider, lower, sloped right side.

While the left side is harder to hit, it offers the better angle of attack into the green, so, it's not just that the fairway is divided, but, the respective configurations of the two fairways and the risk/reward associated with choosing one versus the other.

With the wind at Bandon, this would appear to be a perfect hole to select for the project

Patrick

That Macdonald quote confirms that the bunkers at NGLA were built to broadly mimic the ditch/dyke strategy on the Sunningdale drawing and first photo above.

Still not sure whether Macdonald saw the Colt or Park green.

Darwin's quote for the hole in 1910, emphasises the bottle effect of the tee shot:

"This is a hole to be approached warily and in instalments, and the prudent man generally takes a cleek or a spoon from the tee, and even then breathes a fervent thanksgiving if his ball lies clear, since the fairway narrows down to a horribly small point."

I'd like to have seen the hole with the dyke and Colt's green.  A difficult hole.

And I agree it would be a neat hole to redo at Bandon, I'd lobby for a meandering diagonal ditch since it would be different. And the raised green similar to NGLA's.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

The reason that I think the "Bottle" hole would be such a great addition to the project at Bandon is because, after the inception of the 8th at NGLA, noone really produced another great one over the last 80 years or so.  

Hence, its reintroduction would present a "novel" hole.

However, without a substantially elevated green, I think the hole losses some of its appeal, strategically, visually and from the perspective of playability, especially with those nice winds.

The steep front and flanking drop off are a key element in making the hole so unique, challenging and fun.  

[Bill_McBride]

The real play today from the back tees is to lay up before the PN or play down the right side.  For most of us that do not or rarely play from the medal tee, the best angle in is still probably the right side so as not to bring OB right and Grant's and Wig bunkers into play.

Wayne, that's what the pros were doing at the Open last summer.  I really didn't see anybody playing much to the right, they were either right at and short of the PN, or to the left.

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