[ForkaB]

What new turf, Sean?  Are you smoking Adam's mushrooms again?  I'll stick with "Highly exaggerated" until someone proves me wrong.  Don't believe everything some yokel says just because it is in print.  In know how easy it is to get in print....

[Tommy Williamsen]

Carnoustie is obviously a great test of golf.  It does however beat me up.  If and when I do go back I just want to play the last three holes until I get them right.  Unfortunatley i probably don't have that much time left.

[Mark Pearce]

I will say that if I only get there once in my life, and I only have 7-10 days, it may not make the cut of must plays. That maybe wrong on my part, but I think if I only got to play in Scotland once my list would be:

TOC (while there, The New and maybe Kingsbarns)
Royal Dornoch (while there, Brora and Nairn)
Muirfield
North Berwick
Cruden Bay
Royal Aberdeen


I list the courses in no particular order of ranking, I just have in mind of starting in the highlands and working my way down through Aberdeen, on to Fife and then the Lothian area, with additional courses thrown in the mix (Gullane, Dunbar, Levan, Lundin, Crail).

If I do make it back, I would definitely play Carnoustie. Proximity to the sea doesn't make a difference to me, (another great course of links qualities that springs to mind is Ganton in England and that is not near the sea) the quality of the land and the design does, and most importantly, how fun is it and will I remember it years from now.

Carnoustie should be ahead of the New Course, Brora and Nairn.  As Daryl says it wouldn't make sense to drive down from Aberdeen towards Fife and NOT play at Carnoustie.  Even more so if you've got enough time to consider playing Brora or Nairn.  Leave the north earlier and take in Carnoustie.

[jg7236]

I played the course back in August and wasn't a big fan.  The course was alright in my books.  There was nothing that interesting with the layout the stuck with me.  I played great, I shot a 82 that could of been a easy 78.  I didn't think the course was too hard at all.  Most great courses I have played I can almost play the entire course in my head after the round is done.  This course, no, there wasn't any real memorable holes to me.  The only holes I really remeber the start of the round on #1 and the the finish of the round on #18.

The train that traveled near the road/adjacent homes and the back nine was a different feature, but very interesting.  I wouldn't want to live in those houses near the railroad.  The shooting range near the dunes adjacent to the golf course was also interesting.  Hearing the non stop semi automatic guns firing one after another.  Is the gun range for the local military?

In opinion again, for the price of the round and the golf course layout, I wasn't impressed by any means at all.

Cheers,

John

[David Stamm]

I did not mean to imply that Levan or Lundin , Brora or Nairn were better choices, I merely mentioned them as "safer" choices given the the range of opinions of Carnoustie and the expense of the course, and how long I anticipate being there. If I can stay 2 weeks, I definitely will play it my first time there. You guys have really given me alot of good info. Not to open a whole new can of worms, but Finegan seems to have the same senitments about Troon that he does about Carnoustie.

[Jason Topp]

When reading Finnegan's take on courses, one needs to keep in mind he is very fond of significant dunesy land, tolerant of blind shots, short courses and unique quirk.  

Carnoustie does not fit this mold.  It is a flat difficult golf course that seems to get more wind than other links.  Charming it is not.  An interesting difficult challenge it is.

[Gary Slatter]

My wife and I played Carnoustie 5 times in 3 days - we loved it although it is the most difficult course to score on that we have ever played. The town is dingy, the new hotel is an eyesore but had great food,nice people and comfortable rooms. Every round we joined 2 different players, usually from Scotland with one exception, a real estate person from San Diego who was trying to play 2 courses a day for 10 days (not our idea of how to enjoy Scotland as we like to play one course as many times as we can in a two night stay).
The marathon golfer was an 8 handicap and with 6 holes to go was 4 over par. He told his caddy that if he parred in he would be very happy. The caddy said if he could bogey in he should be happy. He shot 89.  

[ForkaB]

Sean

I've written the book.  No need to talk to anybody now.  Next time we meet, bring your copy of Finegan (if you can lift it!) and I'lll see what all the fuss is about.

Ricardo

PS--do they say ciao in Sicilia?  I'll be there Saturday.

[Michael Simes]

2.  A classic routing that never takes you far from the last green to the next tee
3.  An intimacy that makes you know that you are playing a course and not just a collection of golf holes.
4.  Amazing holes such as 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, and 18 that blow away any of CB MacDonald's early 20th century "templates."

Amen.  Very well said.  The first two there are what I remember most about Carnoustie.  It has an intimacy that is lacking at many other tracks in the area.  I remember walking that course -- with a phenomenal caddie named Stuart who saved me a solid 9 strokes out there -- and thinking that I was never far from the rest of the course.  A wonderful course if you get into rhythm.  

I walked onto the first tee with memories of 1999 in my head, thinking that, hey, if Sergio shot an 89 here, what the hell kind of number will I put up.  Of course, such thinking -- and the fescue off the right front of the second green -- had me +6 thru 3 holes.  Stuart came up to me on the 4th tee and said, "You're making this course a lot harder than it is.  Just hit it down the middle."  I decided to start listening to Stuart, found a little rhythm, and I played 4-17 very nicely and realized that the course is certainly not unfairly tough, though it certainly can get into your head.  A silly bogey on 18 was unfortunate, but I remember looking back from the veranda of the hotel with my wife and her family as the sun was just starting its final descent for the evening and thinking that I'd never played a better course.  It remains in my top 5 favorite courses to play (with Bethpage Black, Engineers, the Old Course, and Pebble Beach).

[Mark_F]

Carnoustie is let down a little by its par threes, which, aside from 13, are a little ordinary.

It's best holes are only slightly lesser holes than the best at The Old Course, but it has more very good holes, and only a couple of plain-ish ones.

Maybe it arouses such disparate opinion amongst GCA buffs because it has none of the endearing quirks and oddities of a North Berwick or Prestwick.

[Mark_Fine]

I have not read the other posts here but I will say this, the better golfer you are, the more you will like Carnoustie.  It is a very stern test of golf.  The wind always blows and you will simply not have any fun if you can't play.  That will cause some to down grade the quality of the course.  

[Yannick Pilon]

When I played there last year, I felt like I just played an "americanized" links course.  The grass was green and lush everywhere.  I even found sprinklers in a few fescue areas around tees!  I was almost shocked!

That being said, it was definitely a stern test of golf that ranks high in the best I have played so far.  But amongst all the courses I played in Scotland (, it's probably the one that produced the least amount of good and long lasting memories.

1.Dornoch
2.TOC
3.Prestwick
4.Cruden Bay
5.North Berwick
6.Royal Aberdeen
7.Gleneagles
8.Carnoustie (but that certainly does not make it a bad course!)

[Wayne Freeman]

Just go and play  and DO NOT PASS ON IT.  You want to walk with all the golfing greats who have been there, and get your butt kicked by 4 of the toughest finishing holes in golf, and listen to the caddies still arguing about what Van de Velde should have or shouldn't have done. It's far from being the most memorable course out there, but definitely worth the visit.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I agree with Rich. Carnoustie is pretty damn good with nary a hole a pushover. I'd like to equate it to being the Scottish "Shinnecock," but that would be brash since Carnoustie was there first!

I love the town. I think it's charming.
I loved the old clubhouse because it was as ugly and cold as Carnoustie seemes to be, but really isn't.
I loved the people. They will welcome a traveler with open arms and have you drinking a pint with them in a wink of an eye.

What would be the weakest hole at Carnoustie? Honestly, I can't think of a single hole that is really weak or not interesting.

[ForkaB]

Tommy

You make a very good point about the people at Carnoustie.  They are the best, bar none, amongst the great golfing venues in Scotland.

The first time I played there, in 1978, I was a single playing behind a 4-ball of locals who were easily keeping up the 3hr/round pace.  On the 14th, I saw a stooping grey haired guy coming coming back to me.  His name was George.  He apologized, telling me that he had lost his tee shot and was not going to let his best friend Harry win the hole without a fight!  He drove off iconfidently nto the wind and I didn't see him again until the 18th green.  He invited me to his club (can't remember which) and I had pints and pies and banter with him and his friends for a few hours, including looking through a photo album of the 31 and 37 Opens.  It was magic.

This year, in conjuction with writing my book, I had a 4 hour session at the same club with 8 of Carnoustie's finest--club captains, Scottish champions, other local worthies, etc. and I learned more about the course and what it means to love and play the game of golf than in any other 4 hours of my life.

Carnoustie Links is a great golf course, but the people who play over it are far greater.  IMO.  Thanks, Tommy, for rekindling the memories.

Rich

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich,
 I played with one local and a father & son from Milwaukee. We had a blast, and when we were done, the local invited us all over to the club across the street for a drink. (My memory after a really long exasperating day at work is failing me and I can't remember the name of the club!) and we had pints for well into the night. Other members joined in and the commeraderie was almost magical.

I love Carnoustie. Absolutely love the place, and I will be getting that book too when it comes out!

[Mark_Fine]

I finally read through some of the other posts on this thread.  I think this goes to show there are no perfect opinions out there on what are the "best" golf courses.  If you picked a ideal panel of people to review golf courses, you would think a guy like Mr. Finnegan would be on it.  But even guys like Jim have "personal" preferences about what is good vs. great that can sway them.  I remember speaking with Jim at length one day about Irish golf courses.  He was telling me how much he loved the new Palmer course at The K Club.  Frankly, I thought it was one of the most contrived over designed courses I played in years yet he loved it.  I'm not into $2MM of fake rock and waterfalls, etc. etc. but he thought the course was great.  

Keep this Carnoustie thread in mind for all those who constantly critize the Top 100 rankings stating that if the panelists were better the lists would be better    There is some truth to that but less than you might think!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
I regretfully didn't play Burnsy when I was there. It's something that bothers me still to this day too, along with Montrose and all of the others in that near stretch of sandy, loamy magnificence.

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
Sooooo many courses, sooooo little time  
Mark

[David Sneddon]

I am very surprised by folks that think Carnoustie isn't tough as old boots.  I generally played well round Carnoustie and still felt beat up - and that is without ever playing in a proper wind.  

I played Carnoustie several times when I lived in Scotland in the 1960's.  Was fortunate to have a couple of decent scores in the 70's, but also several in the 80's, and one in the 90's.  Played it again in 2004 and it brought me to my knees again.

What Carnoustie does to me, that no other course does, is leave me exhausted  mentally and physically - no matter my score.  It is one tough golf course no matter how well you are playing.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mark, this would be true, but there is no excuse for it when you there for more then three weeks and all of that time is being spent hanging around St. Andrews! (and Leeds and London!)

[John Sabino]

Don't agree with Finegan's assessment of Carnoustie, Rich Goodale has hit the nail on the head, the more you see the course the more it becomes clear that it is one of the finest courses in the world.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy/Rich - others who like the "charm" and feel at Carnoustie:

Do you still love it today, with that huge Americanized hotel?

I LOVED it way back when - echo your comments for sure - and my guys too had a great time in the club/bar across the street - but when there a few years ago, to me nearly all of that was sadly gone.  The feel around the club was like freakin' Cinnabar Hills in San Jose - nice, modern, good food, good drink - absolutely nothing wrong with that - but that's not what I went to Scotland for, you know?

I have zero doubt the PEOPLE at Carnoustie have not changed.  But the atmosphere?  I guess the only good news there is it makes you want to get out on the course quicker!

TH

[Gary Slatter]

Several have said that the better the player the more they like Carnoustie - I think that is so true, although most of local people that we played with were not very good golfers and  still loved to play Carnoustie once "every season".  I assumed that was the brown season and the green season.
The National in Toronto is similar, it is the toughest course in Canada and loved by all the people lucky enough to play it.  You walk off exhausted and beaten, and can't wait to play it again.  You don't get that feeling from every tough course (TPC Sawgrass), but you do at Carnoustie and the National.

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