Would Macdonald choose the same templates? Would you?

[George Pazin]

The better question is:

Is there a hole built after Raynor's death that would have caught MacDonald's eye as a great hole type that would have been used in future design?

I would be very interested in hearing possible additions to the other template holes. I was always under the impression that they tried to incorporate the occasional new idea with each course to advance their art.

This is such a great question that Ian asked that I think it deserves its own thread, not to be lost on the other thread.

Here's a few holes I think are worthy of replication:

- #3 Oakmont
- #12 Oakmont
(could have listed a bunch more )
- #13 ANGC
- Cypress #s 9, 16 & 17 (and no, you don't need the ocean, just as many MacR courses didn't have an actual road)

There's tons more - what are your choices.












(And, of course, I'd include my entries into various armchair contests )

[Aaron Katz]

10 at Riviera.  Seems like it should be exceptionally difficult to replicate.  

[John Kirk]

Foxy

[Geoffrey Childs]

George

I have not seen Oakmont yet (it's my #1 place to see) so I can't comment on that one

but

the others all rely on amazing landforms for their strategies that would need to be either similar or recreated.

#13 at ANGC has a ton of downhill to the teeshot with Rae's creek meandering along side.  It swings to the left and then uses the creek and an angled green.  They tried to recreate it at Architects club but the topography just isn't there. It's Architects-lite.  I don't know if a stream runs on that property but my guess would be that the topography, water and landform would be very tough to mimick.

Cypress #9 might be the easiest if there were a dune to angle a green into.

Cypress #16 will be a biarritz sort of like Fishers Island.

Cypress #17 as an oceanside par 4 with a green near the cliff and a principal's nose complex in the driving landing zone with an ideal approach from between the ocean and PN bunker.

That said, I think its outside the mandate of Mr Keiser to think about other templates for course #4.

[ForkaB]

Great topic, George

In Olde Europe, here are just a few that CB managed to miss.....

12 Old Course
1/18 combo, Old Course
14 Dornoch
17 Carnoustie
2 Gullane
6 Lahinch
1 Machrihanish
7 (old version) Hoylake
etc. etc. etc.

Post facto, in the US I'd add

8 and 9 Cypress Point (maybe 16 too....)
18 Pebble Beach (with or without Oceran)
4 Spyglass
16 NGLA
11 Shinnecock
16 Merion
16 TPC Sawgrass
I am sure ther are more.....

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Olympic-Lake #7.  short par four with three-tiered green

[SPDB]

Huzzah Rich!

I loved 2 at Gullane.



On the other thread, I mentioned that on his "Ideal Golf Course" CBM listed, among the 18 holes, the 8th at St. Andrew's New, which is also one of my favorites (also pictured below). Interestingly, though he noted distinguished it as worthy of emulation, it was never, to my knowledge, built by CBM.

Both feature greens buttressed by two large sandhills, I'm wondering what Freud might think of these fascinations.    

[Jimmy Muratt]

A few of my favorites, these could all be fairly easily duplicated as their greatness stems more from the architect's genius rather than one-of-a-kind land:

Fenway #15, 300 yards, wonderful short and sinister par 4 with a green about the width of the flagstick

Myopia Hunt Club #4, 390 yards, dog-leg left par 4 around wetlands and perfectly placed bunkers, very sloped right-to-left green

Myopia Hunt Club #9, 135 yards, one of my favorite short par 3's.  A real knee-knocker of a tee shot.

Kingsley Club #2, 150 yards, another great short par 3.  Extremely tempting to fire at a front hole location with a short iron in your end, but be precise or you will pay.....

Kingsley Club #15, 455 yards, an excellent long par 4 that breaks most "rules" about long par 4's.  It has a tiny crowned green demands a perfect approach.  A very unique greensite and hole.  

[ForkaB]

Sean

Good call, but could you see CB calling one of his templates "Birth Canal?"

PS--you know, of course, that #8 on the New used to be an "Alps" before they renovated it?

[George Pazin]

Damn, how could I forget #10 Riviera? I say that so often it was Shivas' tagline for a long time (might still be, in fact).

Great topic, George

My topic, but Ian's question, just to be clear.

Geoff -

You are certainly correct in that it would call for certain landforms, but that's the interesting part to me.

I guess it's my math geek background, because one of the things we learned was to simplify problems until you find one where there's already a solution, and then work up from there. I realize this goes against creativity in design, but it's not like there are infinite design options out there anyway, so we might as well look to examples that work.

To me, #3 Oakmont solves the problem of how to use a moderate hilltop effectively, and #12 Oakmont is textbook for how to use a long downgrade effectively. It kills me that there really aren't any other #12s that I'm aware of. Any one of #1, 10 or 12 would be terrific templates for downhill holes. Instead, we always seem to have the obligatory drop shot par 3. Yawn.

You're probably right about #13 ANGC. That type of land, with the Daytona bank, probably isn't too common.

As for Cypress #16 & 17, they seem to be diagonal tee shots on long par 3s and short par 4s, respectively. I like that a great deal - too bad we can't make more oceans.

Sean, great photos.

[Garland Bayley]

The Black Mesa 4th modification to the Dell hole. It has to have that high spur on the left that some of the tees require hitting over.

[Jim Thompson]

I have no idea what CB would do, but I think he would take advantage of modern construction equipment to improve or tweak some of the original template holes.  I can think of about 25 different base holes / concepts in my head that I would draw from as starting points and then tweak in the field to fit or maximize the land where they fit.  The only negative temptation would be trying to squeeze in a hole concept or failing to recognize some form of repetition in holes of close proximity in the course of play.

My list and my terms probably don't match exact originals but make sense in my head:

Redan
Biarritz
Short
Eden
Knoll
Hard Cut out
Slipper
Side Steps
Punch Bowl
Quick Cape
Blister
Leven
Hog Back
Gateway
Off Cambered Pyrenees
Cafeteria tray
Alps
Cat Walk
Rook / Valley
Road
Long
Full or Double Cape
Bottle
Cardinal
The other Leven
High Road

If you want descriptions I’ll need a dry erase board and my hands to explain.

Cheers!

JT

[Phil McDade]

Rich:

The 1st hole at Machrihanish is a very good hole. It's also, in my view, about the 6th or 7th best par 4 on the front nine of Machrihanish.

Yeah, the tee shot makes all the calendars and postcards. But it's not that hard of a tee shot, and the rest of the hole is fairly featureless and somewhat benign. Its green pales in comparison to the 2nd's, and its fairway has none of the heaving features that make the 3rd, the 5th and 6th especially, or the 7th or 8th, such great, fun holes to play. I even think the 9th has some virtue over the 1st. And I'm not really sure it's a template hole -- or if it is one, it's one of the most copied ones around. The 5th at Crail (Balcomie) is a better version, in part because the approach shot is more exacting.

[ForkaB]

Phil

Agree with all you say about Machrihanish (and about the greatness of the 5th at Balcomie), but templates are more about concept than quality.  After all, the original Redan is the worst of the par-3s at North Berwick.

Rich

[Sean_A]

Rich:

The 1st hole at Machrihanish is a very good hole. It's also, in my view, about the 6th or 7th best par 4 on the front nine of Machrihanish.

Yeah, the tee shot makes all the calendars and postcards. But it's not that hard of a tee shot, and the rest of the hole is fairly featureless and somewhat benign. Its green pales in comparison to the 2nd's, and its fairway has none of the heaving features that make the 3rd, the 5th and 6th especially, or the 7th or 8th, such great, fun holes to play. I even think the 9th has some virtue over the 1st. And I'm not really sure it's a template hole -- or if it is one, it's one of the most copied ones around. The 5th at Crail (Balcomie) is a better version, in part because the approach shot is more exacting.

Phil

First off, pay no attention to Rihc.  He has no clue nor appreciation of North Berwick's greatness.  I think Carlekemp gives Redan a run for its money, but the other two par threes are lovely without being terribly special in any way.

You miss the point of Mac's 1st hole.  That design is meant to look harder than it plays because it offers so many options for all levels of players.  It is one of the very best heroic holes in golf.  I am not sure the 5th at Crail is better, but it is harder for the better players.  Both holes are wonderful.

Garland

Not to pick on you, but folks on this site are mad about "modified" this and that when the "modified" holes leave out critical elements of the original.  The Dell has three critical elements.  1. It is blind!  There are no visual clues for distance.  2. It requires an aerial approach.  3. The shot is do or don't die.  This means the hole has all the attributes of a heroic hole except it is nearly impossible to lose a ball.  

Guys do the same thing with Redans.  Most of the examples tossed out as modified Redans are downhill!  Sorry, uphill and partially blind are critical elements of the original.  These elements obscure the other critical elements of bunkering and a right to left, downhill feeder green.  

Ciao

[T_MacWood]

Did MacDonald have any really good templates for par-5s? The long hole maybe....did he ever produce an ominous Hell bunker? Perhaps he could have chosen some better par-5s.

Tilly's Hell's Half Acre par-5s were good templates.

[Phil McDade]

Rich:

Haven't had the pleasure of playing the original Redan at North Berwick, so I can't compare.

Sean:

I guess there is an argument for the options on the 1st at Machrihanish. But, having never played it, I figured it out pretty quickly -- just picked out my line, judging how far I thought I could carry, erred on the side of caution (away from the ocean), and hit a drive. I suppose that's lots of options, but it's an option based on one thing -- how far you can carry a drive -- and not much else.

Compared to the rest of the par 4 tee shots at Machrihanish's front nine, all of which (save the 2nd, which is a hole really all about the approach shot and a pretty amazing green) present far more challenge and wonder (for lack of a better word). Given a choice, e.g., of playing one and only one hole at Machrihanish, I'd make a beeline for the 5th and ignore the 1st. Admittedly, the 1st is more of template hole than any of the others, because the others are so much of their locale and the crazy terrain of Machrihanish.

Tom -- would the bottle 9th par 5 at the National be considered a template? It looks to be a pretty cool hole, and Pat Mucci admires its strategic design. But I don't know if it has been replicated elsewhere.

[George_Bahto]

Tom Mac:  "Did MacDonald have any really good templates for par-5s? The long hole maybe....did he ever produce an ominous Hell bunker?"

not yet ..............

[George_Bahto]

and why do we have this incessant capital "D" thing ??

[Jason Topp]

Some other ideas:

5 - Woodlands

11 - TPC Sawgrass

[George Pazin]

Garland

Not to pick on you, but folks on this site are mad about "modified" this and that when the "modified" holes leave out critical elements of the original.  The Dell has three critical elements.  1. It is blind!  There are no visual clues for distance.  2. It requires an aerial approach.  3. The shot is do or don't die.  This means the hole has all the attributes of a heroic hole except it is nearly impossible to lose a ball.

Sean -

The one thing that is missing from that photo is that there is significant greenspace behind the hill - that's what Garland is calling a modified Dell. It's kind of a half-Dell. The required shot is pretty much aerial, and it's actually somewhat playable in the areas that look like death (don't ask me how I know...).

I almost made a joke in my initial post about not including any BM holes, just to tweak the many supporters on this board, but there actually are a few I think might be okay in principle, as long as they don't use the rock strewn sides as part of the template.

[Ian Andrew]

George and Tom M

"Did MacDonald have any really good templates for par-5s? The long hole maybe....did he ever produce an ominous Hell bunker? Perhaps he could have chosen some better par-5s. "

Wasn't the Road Hole a par five?


George,

The Sahara concept by Tillinghast is something a little different for a five.