[ChipRoyce]

So now that I've been able to visit Bandon and see all 3 courses, I feel that I've had an epiphany similar to my trip to Dornoch and some of the great courses of Scotland.

I came away with the feeling that Pacific Dunes (PD) is truly one of the best courses in the US, much less the world. Bandon Trails and Bandon Dunes are both really good in their own regard, but PD seemed to stand head and shoulders above the others.

I know the discussion could boil down to where it stacks up against which courses, etc... and much of that is subjective.

However, the consistency of the holes, complexity of the strategic options, creativity and quality of the golfing land, just plainly stood out as something spectacular.

Do folks think that its just a matter of time before PD is considered World Top 10? (if not already regarded?)

[Tom Huckaby]

Chip - it's pretty close now.  Go to any world ranking and Pacific Dunes is pretty darn high up... go to any US ranking and it's very close if not in the Top 10 already.

Top 10 in the world will be more difficult obviously given the very tough competition... but I do believe Top 10 in the US is a given even now.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Top 10 in the world...Not even close.  Golf Digest currently has it 22nd in this country.  Too many concessions to ocean views and resort play to be the best ever built by a living architect.  Probably not even the best course Doak ever built...soon not to be even the best course in the neighborhood.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK is correct re GD - it is #22 in the US on the 2005-2006 list.

Golf Magazine has it #8 in the US, #13 in the world.

Golf Week has it #2 modern (US only).

So it is pretty high up right now.  Hell #22 in the US is still very, very good.  Look at the ones above it and it is certainly in great company.

TH

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pac Dunes is an absolutely fantastic golf course in my opinion but I also think there are an awful lot that are even better.

I don't think it will ever touch Top 10 in the world and I also don't think it will ever touch Top 10 in the US.

I would place it firmly within the Top 100 world that I have seen (and even with the other candidates that I have read about) but I can't get much more enthusiastic then that.

Every one of the truly upper echelon courses on my list has in addition to a fun and memoribility factor at least a few totally unforgetable world class holes that blow you away.  Pac Dunes doesn't have these to me.

Further, and not necessarily germaine to this discussion I hear its bunkers are a maintenance nightmare costing the resort hundreds of thousands of dollars for new sprinkler heads to water the bunkers as well as maintenance costs to hand water the bunkers so the sand doesn't disappear.

[Tom Huckaby]

Geoffrey - that's damn well just about how I see Pacific Dunes also.. although I would put #13 in my short list of "blowing me away" golf holes.  I do like that one.  There are quite a few other very good holes on the course also.  In fact I see no true weaknesses on Pacific Dunes - closest thing is that to me the weird configuration of the back nine is something that's cool the first few times you play but gets old over time - but a course that's ranked #22 in the USA really shouldn't have any weaknesses!  To me that seems about right... and man that's no knock at all on Pacific Dunes - you're just talking some very stiff competition.

In any case that's not my point here - Chip's asking if it will make top 10, and as you see, it already is there in two of the three US magazines.  Or at least I think it is - it's always rather hard to tell how Golf Week feels about things on an overall context, given the whole courses built after 1960 get rated differently wussification thing.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Chip, I am with you. I think it is top 10 in US and top say 25 in the world. The question of how it matures and what changes are made will impact this greatly. It lives in the upper strata with Sand Hills in the best courses built in the world in the last 50 years.

[tlavin]

I'd put it in the top 25.  For a relatively new golf course that's quite an accomplishment and it is quite a golf course.  Very inspired design on an excellent piece of property.  Throw in the well-trained caddies and the overall vibe of the resort and you have a world-class experience.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tiger,

Is it better than Sebonack..How about ANGC..

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey - that's damn well just about how I see Pacific Dunes also.. although I would put #13 in my short list of "blowing me away" golf holes.  I do like that one.  There are quite a few other very good holes on the course also.  In fact I see no true weaknesses on Pacific Dunes - closest thing is that to me the weird configuration of the back nine is something that's cool the first few times you play but gets old over time - but a course that's ranked #22 in the USA really shouldn't have any weaknesses!  To me that seems about right... and man that's no knock at all on Pacific Dunes - you're just talking some very stiff competition.

In any case that's not my point here - Chip's asking if it will make top 10, and as you see, it already is there in two of the three US magazines.  Or at least I think it is - it's always rather hard to tell how Golf Week feels about things on an overall context, given the whole courses built after 1960 get rated differently wussification thing.  

Well then Tom - its nice to be in agreement! 13 is a pretty unforgetable hole and I think you nailed it on the rest of the course.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tiger,

Is it better than Sebonack..How about ANGC..

John

I don't think its better then Eastward Ho, Engineers or even Lawsonia and a fully restored Yale!  How's that for taste?

[Tom Huckaby]

GC - we agree far more than we disagree.  Our agreements are just not ever very much fun.  

Tiger - of course it's up there with Sand Hills as one of the best courses built in the last 50 years.  I can dig that.  I just also would say Sand Hills is the best course built ever in these United States or any other nation.  I wouldn't put Pacific Dunes in that conversation on the overall.... would you?

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Geoffrey,

Quit being on my side before my head explodes.  I reached critical mass on your Yeaman's review and this may be too much.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey,

Quit being on my side before my head explodes.  I reached critical mass on your Yeaman's review and this may be too much.

John

Its all part of my evil master plan.

I hope you are well. You never repled to my IM so I trust that everything is in order.

[Jason Blasberg]

Geoffrey,

Quit being on my side before my head explodes.  I reached critical mass on your Yeaman's review and this may be too much.

John

Its all part of my evil master plan.

I hope you are well. You never repled to my IM so I trust that everything is in order.

This sounds like Dr. Evil and Austin Powers teaming up to conquer the GCA World . . . I'm not sure who mini-me is, however . . .

[John Kavanaugh]

Rich Goodale will always be my mini-me...code named tri-pod.

[Jason Blasberg]

apparently it's good to be Rich Goodale  

[ForkaB]

It's better than any alternative I can think of.....

Rich "Basking in the afterglow of smugness now that my prediction of 6 years ago about the fragility of the PD bunkers has been confirmed" Goodale

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom, I agree that Sand Hills is number uno and there is plenty of airspace between 1 and 2. Barny aka Dr. Evil, I have only taken a tour of Sebonack and a 5 hole tour of Bally Neal. Tom Doak is the only one to know right now if either will likely be a better overall course than Pacific Dunes. I have heard and not from Tom that he thinks Bally Neal might well be better. All three are really great. I am looking forward to the opportunity to actually play them after they have matured for a year and be able to give you a real answer aka opinion to that question. ANGA is better, even after Hootie has put his chicken greased fingers all over the masterpieice. It is over 50 years old as well. Geoffrey, I can see you do not place this gift to golf above some really great classic courses in the US. I am more troubled by your new found alliance with Barny. Rich the bunkers move with the wind but still are bunkers none the less.

[John Goodman]

Where do you rank PD among:

Pebble
Pinehurst #2
Bethpage Black
Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails
Kiawah Ocean
TPC Sawgrass
Spyglass
Pasatiempo

I haven't played 'em all, but I'd have to think PD goes somewhere closer to the middle of that list than to the top of it.

[ChipRoyce]

Where do you rank PD among:

Pebble
Pinehurst #2
Bethpage Black
Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails
Kiawah Ocean
TPC Sawgrass
Spyglass
Pasatiempo

I haven't played 'em all, but I'd have to think PD goes somewhere closer to the middle of that list than to the top of it.

For what its worth, here's my read on this list:
Pacific Dunes
Pinehurst #2
Bandon Dunes
Bethpage Black
Pebble
Bandon Trails
Kiawah Ocean
Spyglass
Pasatiempo
TPC Sawgrass

The problem I have is that its really difficult to compare Pinehurst and BD.

I'm getting to the point that there's different lists of styles of courses (Links (True and Faux); Heathland, Parkland, Desert). Thinking this is a better way to compare courses than trying to put Merion up against Bandon Dunes against ANGC.

[ChipRoyce]

Chip, I am with you. I think it is top 10 in US and top say 25 in the world. The question of how it matures and what changes are made will impact this greatly. It lives in the upper strata with Sand Hills in the best courses built in the world in the last 50 years.

Tiger;
Interesting you say this. For instance, I was thinking about its maturity in the context of how TOC and Pinehurst have evolved. It would be novel to think, if Tom Doak lived onsite at PD and could tinker with the course, how it would evolve and continually improve.

[rjsimper]

Where do you rank PD among:

Pebble
Pinehurst #2
Bethpage Black
Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails
Kiawah Ocean
TPC Sawgrass
Spyglass
Pasatiempo

I haven't played 'em all, but I'd have to think PD goes somewhere closer to the middle of that list than to the top of it.

I have played 4 of these and Pacific easily finds the top of my list.

Pacific Dunes
Pinehurst #2
Between Bandon Dunes and Trails, I am still undecided, having only played the Trails once to Bandon's 5 rounds

[Geoffrey Childs]

OK then how about this mix of a few courses around the world that are built on different land, soils and location – compare them with Pac Dunes

Sand Hills
Merion
Shinnecock Hills
Friars Head
Prairie Dunes
Crystal Downs
Seminole
Winged Foot West
NGLA
Fishers Island
Riviera


The Old Course
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal County Down
Ganton
Woodhall Spa
Ballybunion
Lahinch
Muirfield
Carnoustie

I purposely left out a few “big names”.  I’ve played them all and I know how I feel –

[tonyt]

Doak has suggested if not stated outright in some instances that Barnbougle may be better, and if Ballyneal is as good as many are saying, does this make PD Doak's #3? If so, St Andrews Beach makes a ripper possible current #4 in anyone's portfolio!

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