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TEPaul

Re:GCGC...if they did it...
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2006, 08:24:18 AM »
Tom MacWood:

This thread is about the potential restoration of the 12th at GCGC. Having spoken at length with Mel Lucas, it seems to me he has everything there is that would be necessary to restore that hole to the way it was, including the measurements of a number of its features.

T_MacWood

Re:GCGC...if they did it...
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2006, 09:20:41 AM »
TE
Great news. My non-scientific guess (based on photos and recollections/observations of Bartlett Travis and others) would be around 4 feet high for the mound on the right, about three feet for the first mound on the left, three and half for the second mound on the left, and about two feet transitioning to two and half feet for the rear mound.

Of course once you determine the height determining the width is equally important. It appears based on photos from the 50s compared to some older ones that the transition from mound to the green was little less abrupt...a little softer.

There are better photos than the Travers-Anderson photo...that is distorted IMO, an optical illusion....especially the mound on the right.

After the 12th gets restored I'd vote for the 5th being put back. In its day one of the great short par-4s in all of golf. I believe Macdonald used it in or more of his designs.

TEPaul

Re:GCGC...if they did it...
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2006, 09:41:31 AM »
Tom MacWood:

I doubt GCGC needs someone like you to "guess" what the dimensions of those berms were since apparently Mel Lucas has all their dimensions actually recorded including the green surrounding bunkering. Have you ever spoken with Mel Lucas? How much time have you spent on that course anyway? About two hours?  ;)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 09:43:02 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:GCGC...if they did it...
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2006, 12:56:35 PM »
TE
I have not spoken to him. I do have an article he wrote about his early experiences at GCGC when he arived there in 1966.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:GCGC...if they did it...
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2006, 04:39:19 PM »

Tell me something Patrick, would the most important thing that can ultimately be done with a golf course be to make the membership happy with it and happy to play it?

If it is something other than that then why don't you tell us what that would be?  ;)

TEPaul,

You and I both know that you can't make a "membership" happy.   Nirvana at Golf/Country clubs isn't attainable.

And, the worst thing you can do is tell members how the green will be maintained and played in the future since those things are so dependent upon Mother Nature.

Shall we take the last two summers as perfect examples.

Had the new superintendent told the members that the golf course was going to play fast and firm in 2005 and 2006 they would have been bitterly disappointed and the superintedent would have lost his credibility.

And, no matter how appropriate and correct your intentions and deeds are, if money is involved, you'll always get dissent.  You know that and I know that.  So, making a "membership" happy may be akin to chasing a rainbow.

Most everyone agrees that the 12th hole was disfigured.
Even the club history book mentions it.
The aerial and ground level photos circa 1936 hang on almost every wall in the club house.
It's clear that the existing hole is out of context with the rest of the golf course.

If constructed, the intent is for the restored hole to play like all of the other holes, no different.
It will be maintained as it needs to be maintained, just like other greens on the golf course.

Since you've admitted to being a novice when it comes to agronomy, let me state that not all grass is maintained the same.

Some greens sit in shadows, some in sunlght, some low, some high, some pitched, some flat, some are old, some are new, some are buffeted by winds, others are protected from winds, and the superintendent must adjust his agronomic practices accordingly.

This can become dicey when a membership expects consistency through out the golf course, despite the fact that the greens are in different locations and may be subjected to different forces.

So, rather than announce how the green will play and be maintained, I'll trust the superintendent to figure that out, and, it may require additional  $ and TLC for awhile, or into the future.

The superintendent knows how the club wants the golf course to play.  Rather than telling the membership how a green, yet to be built, is going to play and be maintained, he's got his hands full trying to get the existing greens to play as everyone wants.   He, along with his advisors will determine which maintainance practices will best accomplish that task.  AND, those practices may change as the situation dictates.

Unless Superintendents are Kreskin or independently wealthy, I don't advise them to make predictions.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:GCGC...if they did it...
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2006, 04:44:52 PM »
Tom MacWood,

TEPaul and I have had extensive discussions and communications with Mel Lucas, who has been extremely generous with his time and passionate in this pursuit.

In addition, an abundance of ground level photos of the green from several angles are at the club's disposal.

Redanman,

The Superintendent at GCGC is very capable.
If the 12th is restored, he'll figure it out, if not initially, through experience.

I'll repeat a statement made earlier which Mike Cirba took exception to.

Since the superintendent has to maintain them he'll be actively involved in their design and construction, if the club decides to restore the hole.

Does it make a difference if they're 3 feet high or 2 feet, 6 inches ?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 04:46:57 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

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