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John Kirk

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Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« on: October 19, 2006, 11:40:43 AM »
(please refer to Ran's write-up, or the PD website for pictures)

I played in a small tournament at Prairie Dunes last weekend.  My host is a long time GCA member, and he will likely contribute to this thread.  It's a terrific place and it offered me the rare opportunity of playing a great course several times.  I don't fall head over heels the first time around anymore.  Great courses need more than one play to reveal themselves: the walk, the pacing, the shots, and the varying wind conditions.

The course was in very good shape.  Greens were rolling around 9.5-10 feet, and the primary rough, which had been long and lush for the Senior Open this summer, was pretty dry and short, yielding a fair number of flier lies.  In general, the pins were tucked into extremely difficult corners of the greens, some only three paces from an edge.  I'm sure the locations were selected for the match play nature of the event.

It's a great place.  Every time I played the course just made me want to play it again.  With that said, let me list some observations and/or criticisms.  My experience is that most great classic courses have easily identifiable shortcomings.

Holes 2 and 4 are very similar, both medium length, uphill holes to the top of the dunes, with the same wind direction.  This is a similar criticism of the Kingsley Club.  At Kingsley, holes 2 and 9 look quite different, but place the same demands on the player; hit a 6- or 7-iron within 5 yards of straight or you’re fighting for bogey.  All four par 3s are uphill at Prairie Dunes, and all are quite difficult.

We played the back tees all weekend long.  At 6700 yards the course isn’t terribly long, but is really tough.    At a rating of 74.2/142, I would guess my handicap index would be 1-2 higher if I played there regularly.  I didn’t break 80 in four tries.  Prairie Dunes is difficult in a manner I find somewhat demoralizing.  Indifferent shots are often rejected to the sides of the greens, where extremely difficult recovery shots await the player.  It’s too tough for my liking, but that didn’t keep me from wanting another crack at it the next day.

Are there two holes more alike in great golf architecture than #17 at Prairie Dunes and #8 at Crystal Downs?  Like twins separated at birth, one just grew hillier than the other.  I would probably give the nod to #17, since I imagine it’s reachable in two for the power player, and there is more risk/reward involved.

Prairie Dunes was a very enjoyable walk, enough to get your heart pumping, but logical and not overly strenuous.  Certain back tees required a backward walk, a common problem with old courses with added length.
 
The “gunsch”, or native grass and shrub areas that line the playing areas, come into play A LOT.  Playing in this best ball tournament with low handicap players (2nd flight, 6-9 total team handicap), I counted 19 balls into the gunsch during the first 27 holes of competition.  About 10 of these balls were found, well above average according to my host.  A similar number found the junk during the final 18 holes of competition.  That’s too much time searching around for balls.

Earlier this year we discussed how the native areas at Stone Eagle encroached on play.  I can say with a great deal of certainty that the same players in a similar format would not hit as many balls out of play at Stone Eagle.  Sometimes classic courses get a free pass for their shortcomings.  If you think three foot grass is a reasonable way to defend par, then you and I disagree.

In particular, hole #13, which features a new back tee box 80 yards back, requires too demanding a tee shot.  I think they need to widen the front portion of the fairway, and shorten the carry a bit.

Prairie Dunes is absolutely beautiful.  But the difficulty was demoralizing, and I’d argue that the top half of Golfweek’s classic course list is populated by courses whose maintenance (Merion) or greenside severity render them too difficult for my liking.  The irony is that home course Pumpkin Ridge looked too easy in comparison yesterday, not tough enough.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 11:42:55 AM by John Kirk »

John_Cullum

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2006, 11:55:35 AM »
Watching the recent Senior Open, there was a par 3, maybe 15 or 16 that looked like you had to thread your tee shot though some trees. Noone mentioned it as being difficult, but it looked tight as hell from my living room. How does that hole play out?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

John Kirk

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2006, 12:06:35 PM »
John,

From the back tees, it's about 200 yards uphill, though the seniors played it shorter on one or two days.  It's possible to hit the trees as you fly through the "Chute", but you have to significantly mishit your shot .  It generally plays crosswind or a little downwind, so it's a 7-wood or a 3-4-5 iron.  The green is medium sized with complex undulation that is difficult to decipher.  Front and left is the correct miss. I'd say it's harder to par than the other par 3s, but you're less likely to double bogey it.

John Kirk

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2006, 12:10:43 PM »
Bill,

The 12th, or "Cottonwood", is a 390 yard par 4 with the second shot played between two large cottonwood trees.  It's a very demanding hole, where the drive and second shot must be accurate.  Some members mentioned they's like to see one tree removed, but I disagree.  I loved the hole, and love the fact that a punch shot under the trees is merited in most instances.  My host (DK) hit a beauty during one match, resulting in a hole won.

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2006, 12:46:09 PM »
I too had the opportunity to spend time at PD last month.  I would agree that the difficulty is humbling.  We played in very high winds the first day and more moderate winds the second day.  

The green complexes, particularly on the Perry Maxwell holes, were amazing.  The internal humps and bumps were difficult to attack and at times simply dumbfounding.  The Pres Maxwell holes lack some of his fathers imagination.  

As with many older course in the modern age, I think the maintenance makes some of the holes too difficult because of green speeds.  Also the native flora and fauna is very thick along the edges.  Probably due to irrigation overspraying into these areas.  I prefer the thinner native areas found at Sand Hills and Wildhorse.  Imagine how many Pro V's are hidden in the gunsch.

Those minor criticisms aside PD is truly an American Gem.  

brad_miller

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2006, 12:51:21 PM »
John, maybe you can comment on the bunker work that was done since Ran took the PD pictures in 2003? Holes number 2 and 4 have some of the same look (I believe B Klein made the same comment in his review a few years ago) but  play at least a club different and usually reward a different shaped shot. Hole number 2 sets up well for a draw and hole number 4 for a high fade. Most people are in agreement with the wild gunch being just a bit to much.

brad_miller

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2006, 12:52:33 PM »
Not many PV1's in the gunch, but many Top Flite's! :)

Sean Leary

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2006, 12:59:51 PM »
Big misses are severely punished at PD. A wild mid handicapper is going to lose a lot of balls there. A short straight hitter won't come close to losing 1 ball. I think the severe penalty makes people really think on their tee shots, which I believe is a positive.

I think 13's extension particularly improves that hole for a good player.  It is one of the few times where it will require a longer iron into a par 4 there (5 and 9 are the other two).  I'm guessing before, people would just bomb it over the left side of the gunsch. Back into the prevailing wind, there is a lot of room right to miss.

Wind and severe greens are the main defenses of the golf course. Tucked pins, wind and firm conditions can turn it into a bear of a course.

John Kirk

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2006, 01:00:48 PM »
Brad,

I think your questions about bunkering are better left for my host, who will likely chime in at some time, or another knowing member.  I was informed C&C added a fairway bunker on #7 for long, slightly pulled drives, to narrow up the landing area a bit.  Lots of gunsch balls on the second shot at #7.

On holes 2 and 4, I don't see much difference in Ran's pictures and what I saw.  I agree that a different shape shot is ideal for those holes.  Downwind, 4 is so tough with a front pin.  You really have to bounce it in from the left side.

John Kirk

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2006, 01:05:43 PM »
I am a medium long and relatively straight hitter.  Over 4 1/2 rounds I hit it into the junk on 5 (second shot), 12 (tee shot), 13 (tee shot twice), and 17 (tee shot twice).  I was not driving it very well last weekend.

With experience, I'm sure you'd relax and start playing close to your handicap there.  But it's a tough learning curve.  Sean, I think you played  well there.  Also, your home course probably prepares you better for the challenges at PD.  
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 01:08:43 PM by John Kirk »

Sean Leary

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2006, 01:12:06 PM »
I am a medium long and relatively straight hitter.  Over 4 1/2 rounds I hit it into the junk on 5 (second shot), 12 (tee shot), 13 (tee shot twice), and 17 (tee shot twice).

John,

All of these hit left?

I'm a little shorter and a little wilder than you.  In light to moderate winds (4 rounds) I hit one out on 7 right, second shot on 9 once, once on 17 and once on 18.

If the gunsch were light and hittable from (like Ballyneal), would it not have enough teeth for the good player? Loren Roberts shot 61 under USGA conditions.

John Kirk

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2006, 01:48:11 PM »
Sean,

I think you're a little longer off the tee than I am, and perhaps a little wilder, but you drive the ball well.

I missed left on all shots except 17, which I missed right twice in the same round.

I just remembered I missed twice right on the tee shot on 7 during my last round, but I was tinkering a little, and tried to hit the ball as far as possible.

I think Roberts shot 62 under USGA conditions, but I'm quite sure the course was playing 300-400 yards shorter, and the pins weren't as tough.  You should have seen some of the pins!

It's easy to find the ball at Ballyneal, but most often the prudent play is a conservative recovery shot.

Sean Leary

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2006, 02:06:29 PM »
I'd be surprised if they played it shorter than the tips, maybe Jason or David will know. I agree that the pins that day certainly weren't as hard as you describe.

For your amusement, a scratch player I played with never finished 17 in four rounds. It might be the toughest short Par 5 on the planet.

When I was there it was very hot and the greens were being syringed, and they were quite receptive.  Firm and on the edges there would cause a lot of near perfect shots to go off the green and make tough up and downs. I'm looking forward to going back with you and getting another perspective, for sure.

Matt_Ward

Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2006, 02:13:31 PM »
John Kirk:

I agree completely with your take on 3-foot grass and how too many times "classic" courses sport such a defense.

The likely outcome?

Plenty of SW's or PW's played out sideways. Check out the recent comments made about Dunluce at Portrush.

That's why there are quite a few sacred cows on GCA that need to be evaluated from how they are playing now -- not some permanent placement of the holy crown on their heads.


Bill_McBride

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2006, 02:41:58 PM »
One of our Pensacola CC members (an amateur, index +1) played in the Senior Open, his second.  He told me Prairie Dunes might be the hardest golf course he's ever played, between the deep rough and the slick greens it was virtually impossible to get up and down if you missed a green.  Many, many bogies.  He was on TV just once and left a bunker shot in the bunker.  :-[

Jason Blasberg

Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2006, 03:18:15 PM »
One of our Pensacola CC members (an amateur, index +1) played in the Senior Open, his second.  He told me Prairie Dunes might be the hardest golf course he's ever played, between the deep rough and the slick greens it was virtually impossible to get up and down if you missed a green.  Many, many bogies.  He was on TV just once and left a bunker shot in the bunker.  :-[

That's what makes Robert's 62 unthinkable!!   I think the USGA was completely suprised with how well the guys in the lead scored.  


Jason Blasberg

Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2006, 03:25:21 PM »
I say this with the caveat that PD is likely my favorite played classic American golf course . . .

I've been outspoken for some time that the gunch needs to be thinned in a number of locations.  Although the playing corridors are very wide in most spots.  

The most noticeable spot the junk gets you quickly is the tee shot and second shot on 7 (unless you're laying up).

John K:

I'm glad I'm not alone in not breaking 80 at PD ;)

BTW, I think I'm most always going to play the forward tees, or a mix so it's about 6400 or so (I don't have a card in front of me).  There's no need to play the tips on 5, 8, 9, 11, 12 (it should be drivable with that tree gate) 13 or 15.  

I love the shotmaking demands at PD but 2 plus lost balls per round is hard on the ego (and wallet!).  


 

brad_miller

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2006, 05:45:14 PM »
During the Senior Open some holes played well short of the tips, numbers 1, 2, 15 (2 of the 4 days) that right there is approx 100 yards.

David Kelly

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2006, 05:57:13 PM »
I think PD rewards conservative play, sometimes extremely conservative play. Since the strategy on so many of the holes is dictated by the wind there are many holes on any given day that should be played for par/bogey rather than birdie/par.   For example when #5 is playing into the wind I think it is foolish to try to hit that green with a 3 or 4 wood unless you can really control that club. The gunch left and the deep bunkers flanking the front entrance of the hole are too penal to try to challenge.  I think the play is to hit something that is rolling on the ground and stops 10-20 yards in front of the green.

I also think that many of the balls that found the gunch this weekend were attributable to the format we played.  A lot of people forced some shots that I am sure they wouldn't have tried in stroke play.

BTW, the Senior Open played significantly shorter than from the tips.  A few examples:

#2 was played at 129 yards on the day the pin was in the front and everything funnelled to the hole - resulting in a birdie fest.   I don't know if they did play it all the way back (160yds) in any of the rounds.

#15 played shorter twice at least and one day played from in front of the trees and players were hitting 9-irons.

The back tee on #13 was not used. They didn't play #1 from the back. #10 played up. There were other examples as well.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 05:58:14 PM by David Kelly »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2006, 07:30:31 PM »
10 is certainly one hole that I will play forward next time.  There's no need with all that trouble to be hitting 5 irons there.  It's an ideal hole at about 140-155.

John Kirk

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2006, 08:07:59 PM »
10 is certainly one hole that I will play forward next time.  There's no need with all that trouble to be hitting 5 irons there.  It's an ideal hole at about 140-155.


Whaddaya mean?  I had no trouble whatsoever making bogey from the back tees on a regular basis.

Seriously, I thought 10 was less severe than both 2 and 4.  Four uphill par 3s.  Poor Stone Eagle got raked across the coals for having 4 downhill par 3s.

David,

On the 13th hole, there's not much one can do to play conservative from the back tee.  We did consistently hit the ball too far left, pretty much every time.  But one of those big cottonwoods between 12 and 13 seems to encroach on the right side, and I seemed to play away from it.

PThomas

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2006, 08:32:19 PM »
I think Mr. Kelly put it well, that sometime syou really have to play conservatively at PD, hitting whatever club you have to to insure the ball is in play....it's not written in stone that a driver must be used off the tee!

PD is a great course and I have a great time during my visit there...very friendly staff, nothing even remotely approaching a snooty attitude

only 2 complaints:  I missed a tricky 3-footer for bird after a glorious 5 wood on number 8, and #10 usually ate my lunch!



199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jason Blasberg

Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2006, 09:09:01 PM »
#10 usually ate my lunch!


10 eats my breakfast, lunch and dinner.   :-[

PThomas

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2006, 09:14:02 PM »
#10 usually ate my lunch!


10 eats my breakfast, lunch and dinner.   :-[

yea, mine too Jason...in 6 rounds I don't think I made 1 par :-[ :'( ??? :o :( >:(
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Joe Hancock

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Re:Prairie Dunes - A Careful Look (sorry, no pics)
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2006, 09:16:16 PM »
#10 usually ate my lunch!


10 eats my breakfast, lunch and dinner.   :-[

yea, mine too Jason...in 6 rounds I don't think I made 1 par :-[ :'( ??? :o :( >:(

Paul,

Have you considered having your wife along to show you how the hole should be played? ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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