And now for something completely different...

[paul cowley]

I would submit the parts of the four hole complex that play in and about the 'ruins' at Love Barefoot...especially #4 and #6,

...and the parts of the three holes that play in and about the 'fort' at the Patriot [including the range tees and practice greens]......in addition I would include #7 at the same course, a par three that was designed with a green aside a wall that sits on upon a R/W.

But alas , I have nothing else....no photos, no food, no pets...I even ain't got no cigarettes!   .

[TEPaul]

But Paul, you just found those military "ruins" there and used them for golf, right?

The ultimate question here is---did General Sherman notice their potential for golf holes when he had them built?

We need to look into things like this since it appears England's Arts and Crafts kingpin, William Morris, understood the close similarities between his A/C furniture, glassware and wallpaper to golf holes and golf architecture and Gertrude Jekyll understood the close similarities of her "wild" English A/C gardens and golf holes.

[paul cowley]

Truth be told Tom, all these elements were created to make people think we were smart enough to route and incorporate them in our overall design......we used faux trickery to accomplish this, and it has worked very well. Most who play these features don't question whether the were pre-existing or not.......we have had many serious compliments from professionals outside the golf arena who thank us for saving these elements for the people of the State...by our incorporating them, as opposed to leveling them for development!

This is where I think our degree of different resides.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Of course I knew that---I just wanted to get you to say it. That they actually thanked you for preserving them is of course the ultimate compliment to a "hide the hand of man" golf course architect.

Now, I think we need to find some way of convincing people that Forrest found that 11th hole at Las Palomas and just used it for golf and perserved it.

But what could it have been that he found and used? I think he should tell people that it was the Suez Canal and those geometric box-like things on the front of the green are just some little docks in a harbor beside the Suez Canal for some really little Egyptian ships. I think he can get away with that explanation. I doubt anyone will think to question that California really isn't Egypt.

[Lou_Duran]

Forrest,

You could have leveraged a nice piece of real estate for what was spent on the wall.  Unique for sure.  I am assuming that one is hitting a fairly short approach to that green.

I do like the apple.

The secondary course where the Nelson is played, Cottonwood Valley, opens with a green loosely shaped like the state of Texas, guarded by a water hazard in the front to resemble the Gulf of Mexico, and a large bunker on top representing Oklahoma.  As I recall, putts from Dallas toward Big Bend and El Paso are very difficult.

[Adam Clayman]

Forrest, Would it be possible for you to tell us how you went about convincing the principles to build such a green?

[Forrest Richardson]

What gives with the dunes? They are to the left of play and, in this shot, are concealing the tees for No. 12. No. 12 plays as a cape around the water in the background of this shot.

Yes, water rolls over the walls. (TP — You should have seen some of the sketches...and been there for the pitch!)

Yes, the names is the same as one of Desmond's holes at Lippo. Desmond's "Temple" was a short par-3 playing completely within a secluded dyke surrounding tees and green. When you played it there was nothing else in sight. The water was a reflection pool...no movement. The shot was about 120-yards. Everything was symetric. The angle to Las Palomas' No. 11 is canted. The player attacks the green at an off-angle to the geometric walls.

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes — You can play to the green from a lower angle (not high on a dune where the tees for the regular par-3, No. 11 are located) ...but from No. 10's fairway. This was a routing feature, but is sadly never used. When you set the course up to play to the green (from angle of the photo, only lower) you then add the 19th hole into the round to make 18.

Adam — The idea cam as we struggled to work in 12 acres of lagoons. We had to meet this criteria to have enough water storage. The depth could not go lower because of the water table — about 5-ft. So, lots of lagoon surface area was required.

It struck me that the water would look and play better as a series of ponds in the lowest area of the site. I tried not to have much of it come into play, but when it did, I wanted it to be dramatic. While there are some views of water at several lower holes, only 9, 11, 12, 13 and 16 actually interact with water.

I did not want repetitive shots involving water. The idea at No. 11 is to give a unique look at water. No just avoid it, but key in on accuracy if you want birdie or par. As I stated earlier, bogey awaits if you get sloppy, even when you stay dry from the tee.

We had to locate a pumphouse near the water, and also re-circulate the water for quality purposes. As I sketched the pumphouse, it became a stone building with iron Mexican moftif window bars. As this progressed it became apparant that the building would be seen from every lower hole. I wanted it to look integral to the course — to somehow become a part of the course. The walls at No. 11 are design elements of this building, which sits nearby (behind the green and partially covereed at the walls by dines.)

I believe more than Desmond — or any specific hole he created — I was struck by Dye's No. 18 at The Golf Club. A series of zig-zag, right-angle stone walls guard that approach along the water. I was very fond of Dye's stone walls...although they were much lower and guarded a long hole, not a par-3.

Sketches evolved and it became more and more interesting to me as we situated the tees on top of a massive dune feature. The tee shot is about 30-40-feet elevated depending on the tees used.

Shy a bit of landscaping, the hole is well received and people have been taking lots of photos at both the tees and green.

[Ulrich Mayring]

This rendition of a boar's head is in Hardenberg, Germany. You be the judge. For me these types of designs do little to further my enjoyment of the game. When golfing I want to be in nature, not in Disneyland

My home course has a 210 Yard Par 4, now THAT is daring. Especially since it's dead straight and not blind.

Ulrich

[Forrest Richardson]

Ulrich — Interesting boar's head. I think. And, I agree...unless one can somehow make it interesting to play, I am not in favor of symbolism for the sake of creating a shape that can be seen from the air. Desmond Muirhead was always interested in BOTH the golf AND the symbolism (at least toward the second part of his golf career.)

I guess I was hoping for some cool examples from around the world. Of really different (and hopefully — at least partially — tasteful) examples of ideas that have been brought to fruition...things we may not have seen recently, or ever.

[George Pazin]

Thanks for sharing all of that information.

I realize it's not always practical or advisable, but if every architect onboard were as open, the site would be that much better.

 

[Darren_Kilfara]

Hmmm...if Forrest wasn't a well-known and well-liked figure on this site, would this hole be receiving the same kind treatment as it is in this thread (with one notable exception)? Are we, collectively, honest critics only insofar as we don't have to hurt anyone's feelings, i.e., it's fine to blast people who don't come onto this site? Personally, I like everything I see in this photo *after* you get over the jagged walls of death - some nice movement in the green and gentle contours to the rear. The front facing itself is pure poppycock.

The art and classical music worlds have been going through a period for many, many years now whereby the words "daring", "experimental" and "unique" have become positive adjectives in and of themselves, independent of a work's actual artistic and aesthetic qualities. Somehow the original purpose of high art - to please the viewer or listener - seems to have disappeared, and instead, unless you're preserving sheep in formaldehyde or composing an atonal nightmare for a trio of harp, marimba and timpani, your work is too lowbrow and populist to make you an "artist" worthy of the name. I pray that this never, ever happens in golf course architecture; seeing a photo like Forrest's is enough to make me turn back to the LPGA tournament at Bighorn and realise that, vapid though that course is, it has the merit of being attractive and artistic to well above 90% of its viewing and likely playing audience. Frankly, the members at Stone Harbor seem to me to have made exactly the right decision in toning down the original monstrosity which Muirhead produced, for precisely this reason!

(Nothing personal, Forrest - quite the contrary, I doubt that you would have wanted to go through this entire thread without some full-throated criticism!)

Cheers,
Darren

[Forrest Richardson]

Criticism is OK.

If my work did not have crtitics, the meetings I sit through with green committees, owners and operators would be boring. Of course, I do not always look for shock value or controversy.

However, I think you (Mr. Darren...why is all your information cloaked?) may find the hole palatable in person. But...I could be wrong.

P.S.  Thank you for describing me as "well liked"...but, I fear this is not always the case.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Darren Kilfara,
Thanks for saying what needed to be said--finally someone had the balls to do it that didn't have a drink in him while typoing away at the keyboard. I agree with you regarding what we used to be able to say here compared to what we say now. Peersonally, I think this hole doesn't fit a dune-like environment. BUT, the hole looks to be somewhat Aztec-like influenced, which was Forrest entire premise for building it. I think. If I was building a golf course, would I put one of these in there? Heavens no! But, I could see, having a little knowledge of the development how it would fit in given the houses that will eventually be around some of the holes, as well as how good the rest of the course looks like it came out. (from pictures) Forrest seemed to grasp the transition from desert/oceanside dunes to golf pretty decently, He also seemed to take a much more keen interest in who he had shaping the course, a guy who literally lived down there the entire process. (Tim Taylor of LIU?)

I honestly look forward to getting down there someday to play it.

Tom Paul,
First, I wasn't criticising Forrest as you maintain. I was alluding to the fact that when I originally saw the concept of this hole in a drawing of Forrest's, I remarked to him, "Ah, some inspriation from Desmond!" which he some-what denied. That's all.

Second, I neither condone or misconstrue any of Desmond's works as classical or even GREAT golf architecture. I do however praise here the memory of a very genuine man, which I'm glad to have called a GREAT friend. His untimely death led me to meeting Forrest, who I also consider a GREAT friend, who I have no problem equally, discussing and debating the merits of Golf Course Architecture, insults included, as fun as they may be. (Because insults are sometimes just jests between equally good friends) and not done in the same manner or tone as you take when attacking Tom MacWood.

Third, Las Palomas isn't in California, it's in Mexico. That is unless you want to call California, Mexico, which I would have no problem. It was their's originally anyway!

[Darren_Kilfara]

Criticism is OK.
However, I think you (Mr. Darren...why is all your information cloaked?) may find the hole palatable in person. But...I could be wrong.

P.S.  Thank you for describing me as "well liked"...but, I fear this is not always the case.

No idea why all of my information is "cloaked" - I'm not even sure what that means, but it's nothing intentional on my part!

The hole may well seem more palatable from ground level - the jagged walls of death (TM) probably look much less jagged when hitting one's approach shot. But for me, sharp angles do not belong on any golf course: they scream "look at me!" and do not begin to resemble anything in the natural world (do they?). Even old-style "square" greens and some of the most geometric Macdonald/Raynor templated concepts are mowed with slightly rounded edges; you never see a sharp point on a green (do you?). And of course I haven't even mentioned the playability aspect, whereby it may be possible for you to be on the green and have water between you and the hole...

As for "well liked"...read "well respected", if you prefer.

Cheers,
Darren

[Bill_McBride]

I guess I was hoping for some cool examples from around the world. Of really different (and hopefully — at least partially — tasteful) examples of ideas that have been brought to fruition...things we may not have seen recently, or ever.

Forrest, it could be difficult for anyone to come up with an example that matches yours!  You may have won the competition before there are other entrants!

Looking forward even more now than before to visiting Puerto Penasco next winter.  

[TEPaul]

Tommy Naccarato:

I'm not attacking Tom MacWood, I'm just seriously questioning some of the conclusions he's arrived at on here and the manner in which he arrived at them. It's too bad neither of you seem to see the difference and it's really too bad he doesn't understand how to defend his conclusions other than to insist what I should read whatever or that I rely on Cornish and Whitten too much both of which are fairly ridiculous things to say in response. Not a particularly intelligent or edifying defense of his theory that.

[paul cowley]

I maintain that the two courses I've submitted utilize design elements that are somewhat uniquely new..........as opposed to the purely decorative, ie; windmills.

 The silent response from this gang [TP excluded] might suggest they are above criticism.....but the reality with both Forrests and my work is that the courses presented probably haven't been played by most here....if any....and as a consequence there is a lot of lobbing softballs, or maybe even no balls.

Not sure what to do about that.....maybe I'll see if Kelly Blake Moran wants to start a blog site with me.
Hell, at least this site has taught me to type and I sure don't want to waste that new skill.

[Forrest Richardson]

Darren — Those are good points.

As for right angles and straight lines...The Road Hole, square green fronts, the usually linear swale of the Biarritz, sleeper walls, the vertical plane of sod walls, and square shaped tees. All are examples of geometric intrusions to the landscape.

I am not a believer that golf itself is supposed to be a placeholder for nature. Or vice versa.

While natural sites and natural looks are pleasing, and often preferred. There are plenty of great examples of unnatural elements in golf. In fact, our modern game is mainly a product of changing the landscape to suit interest, play and strategy. I hate to be the one to break this to all here, but golf course architects influence and change the green surface from its natural state in about 99.99% of the time. (Although not always into the outline of a boar's head! )

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I am not a believer that golf itself is supposed to be a placeholder for nature. Or vice versa.

Darren,
This is why Forrest likes a really nice funicular on a golf course.....

Tom Paul,
Yes, you've never made your quest to belittle Tom MacWood personal, ever.

Paul, I for one would put the Paul Cowley blog in my daily bookmarks. You better update it daily though!

[Bill_McBride]

I believe that if Forrest, or an anonymous source, had posted photos of this hole without any of his descriptive narrative and the rationale behind the hole's design, there might have been some flamethrowing.  

But understanding the reason for the hole's design, it makes a lot of sense.  And it's hard as hell to pour curved concrete walls!

The straight line of the road at the Old Course is indeed a precursor.  Last week some of the lucky ones saw Hoylake, where there was once another Road Hole - #17, with the road perhaps a yard off the green according to those who played it.  Today it's #1 and the road is pretty far removed.  It's a toothless tiger compared to the past, apart from being 430 yards into the prevailing wind!

[Jim Nugent]

Chris Perry -- can you, the golfer, figure out the apple shape from the ground?  Or only from aerials?

[paul cowley]

They apple /boar/Mickey Mouse type of holes are generally more about marketing symbolism or logoing, and usually less about strategy....not that the two couldn't be successfully combined.
But the concept expanded to 18 holes might get a little 'Goofy'.......even if he was one of the holes.

[Ulrich Mayring]

In the case of the boar's head, it's the company's logo, whose owner built the Golf course. They are marketing Schnapps and other liquor, which may or may not be of significance to this work of Canadian architect David John Krause.



Find below the signature green of Santa Ponsa 2, a Golf course on the Balearic island of Mallorca, which is shaped remarkably like this green. The Golf course is located on the shore facing the left side of the bridge.



Ulrich

[Kyle Harris]

This rendition of a boar's head is in Hardenberg, Germany. You be the judge. For me these types of designs do little to further my enjoyment of the game. When golfing I want to be in nature, not in Disneyland

My home course has a 210 Yard Par 4, now THAT is daring. Especially since it's dead straight and not blind.

Ulrich

So Ulrich, just what is natural about randomly strewn bits of sand amongst non-native and maintained grasses with built up slopes and drainage and irrigation lines throughout the land?