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RSLivingston_III

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Steamroller?
« on: October 16, 2006, 05:10:15 PM »
Just ran across an ad for Steamrollers for sale for golf courses. This is in a 1898 USGA publication. I can post a copy of the ad later if anyone wants to see it.
I was surprised as I wouldn't think you wouldn't want the level of compaction to the soil I assume they give.
Are they, or something similar, used at all today?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 05:10:42 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
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ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Steamroller?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2006, 05:21:20 PM »
Ralph,

The history of Ekwanok has photos from the construction including one of a large steam roller. The caption reads in part, "... Ekwanok loaned its steam roller to the town for road improvements."

Tony


Alfie

Re:Steamroller?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2006, 05:57:54 PM »
Ralph,

Certainly can't shed any light upon the US use of steamrollers on golf courses....but I can offer this .....

Harry and I had a lengthy debate surrounding the issue of whether we would try to heavy roll the grassy knolls down on Arbory when we were restoring it ! As these knolls had been listed as hazards in 1892, we decided that they should obviously remain a feature of the course.

These so called knolls are "probably" the legacy of two natural factors ; viz ; 1) mole casts which have grown over with new grass, and 2) fairly large boulders which lay directly under the turf sward at Arbory Braes.

Maybe there is scope for some thought here in regard to the US use of steamrollers circa 1890's ?

Farmers still heavy roll grazing areas / fields.

Alfie

TEPaul

Re:Steamroller?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2006, 09:17:53 PM »
Ralph:

Steamrolling greens with really heavy steamrollers was somethng that was tried in the old days on putting greens to smooth them out and create some real speed on the putting surfaces. There was a sufficient amount written about this when it was tried at GCGC early on.

What we have to remember is this was long before golf understood much about agronomy. This steamrolling of greens was referred to as "ironing greens" back then. It apparently made the greens incredibly fast. That was probably the good news for a time. The bad new was it didn't take long to kill the greens.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 09:18:56 PM by TEPaul »

Joe Hancock

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Re:Steamroller?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2006, 09:44:00 PM »
Ralph:

Steamrolling greens with really heavy steamrollers was somethng that was tried in the old days on putting greens to smooth them out and create some real speed on the putting surfaces. There was a sufficient amount written about this when it was tried at GCGC early on.

What we have to remember is this was long before golf understood much about agronomy. This steamrolling of greens was referred to as "ironing greens" back then. It apparently made the greens incredibly fast. That was probably the good news for a time. The bad new was it didn't take long to kill the greens.  ;)

Tom,

I bet that heavy rolling didn't create as much compaction back then due to the irrigation practices of the day. It takes water to help displace the air that needs to exist in a healthy soil. Watering used to be a chore!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_Tully

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Re:Steamroller?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2006, 12:16:34 AM »
To get a perspective of what rolling consisted of for the period that Ralph is talking about we really need to see some pictures.
Here is one type of roller that is used today for comparison.




1901



1902



1903

Now what were they used for again?

They seem pretty big and I can see them rolling the greens but should we also consider that they might be rolling the entire golf course. If they have sheep grazing the course or horses pulling mowers there is going to be some damage to some turf especially coming out of the winter in the North or as it is in the Bay area trying to mow some grass in the wet of winter for example. Here is some info to back that up from none other that CB  MacDonald at Chicago Golf Club in 1898! Note the timeframe of the rolling is in May and June, around the time that the soils would have lost most of its winter moisture and when rolling would have positive results in smoothing out the playing surface.




1902
One of my favorites. You get a good idea regarding the size of teh crew and the equipment used to maintain a course. There are at least 8 horses in that pic to get an idea for the number of horses used.


1902
This is at Baltrusol.



1921

Note the early photoshopping there!

Some fun stuff there.
 
Tully


TEPaul

Re:Steamroller?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2006, 08:18:38 AM »
I don't think we can be oblivious to the fact that to some degree increased weight on grass is going to have all kinds of deleterious effects. We can't forget that like us, grass is a living thing. I know I'd probably rather be rolled by that thing in the top photo compared to some of those monster steamrollers used around the turn of the century when no one knew much about golf agronomy. If rolling greens with things of that size and weight had been generally benefiical then obviously they would've continued to do it but clearly they didn't.

We may tend to forget just how little they knew about golf argronomy back in that early day.

After all, initially both Macdonald and Crump attempted to grow grass on pretty much straight sand sites. No can do C.B and George! It worked for a while and then totally failed.

Their next set was to bring in literally thousands of cart loads of manure and topsoil---something apparently both had not initially expected to have to do.

The idea of nutrition in soil as well as its ability to hold some moisture for a period of time had probably just not occured to them at that early point.  ;)

Enter Piper and Oakley of the United States Dept. of Agriculture and their original theories on ultra lyming. Unfortunately, those guys were not golf agronomists because there really weren't any over here back then but botanists and into the idea of getting most everything to grow.

So everything did grow on some of those early courses including massive amounts of weeds and all kinds and manner of other crap.

Whoops, back to the labs and the drawingboards.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 08:24:09 AM by TEPaul »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Steamroller?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2006, 05:30:13 PM »
Tom,

The grass back then wasn't wussified by nightly irrigation. It didn't get weekly fungicide applications. It didn't receive 3.65 pounds of nitrogen per year based on soil samples and leaf tissue tests. It didn't get mowed every day, with all the grass clippings removed. They didn't drive tractors, with blowers attached, over the course every day to make sure not one leaf was hindering the golfers. They didn't drive golf carts all over the place to allow for every golfer to GPS his/ her yardage on every damn shot. They didn't have a crew of twenty, each with their own assigned cart to get around the course. They didn't send out crews of people to edge cart paths.

They sure didn't know as much about agronomy, but were light years ahead of us in terms of a common sense approach to A GAME! The rollers were probably a precurser to the great fall..... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017