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Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #75 on: October 03, 2006, 05:26:08 PM »
BTW, I personally like larger, shallower bunkers on long shots to the green.  For most of us, that is at least a half-stroke penalty.  In the example given, I wonder if the tee has been moved back beyond the relative gains in distance due to equipment, maintenance, swing mechanics, etc.  In other words, was it the original design intent to penalize the club golfer by one stroke or more with the depth and configuration of the bunker?  Was the fairway real wide at the founding and perhaps trees and rough allowed to make it more narrow?

I truly think you give away your own biases here. According to you, playability would be the biggest issue. Since we haven't even disclosed the course in question, you're now probing for specifics in an initial post that was intended to question a more broad trend. This is woods for the trees stuff.


In restorations, other than figuring out to what era you are restoring the course to, if design intent is paramount, isn't it also necessary to adjust length and width of the hole?  Would Ross or Thompson have us regularly hitting a 3 iron from a 5' deep bunker with a nose or a high lip but a few feet in front of us?  Maybe so if there are a few give-away holes on the course.


The answer, in the case of Thompson designs, is varied. But more often than not, he had deep fairway bunkers which were a hazard. But just like I can't claim to know much about Donald Ross, I do know a lot about the work of Stanley Thompson. And guess what? You are essentially guilty of what Ian is claiming these raters did. You are making an assumption without any basis in fact.

In all of this nonsense, I find SL's post the most sensible. All Ian was suggesting, in my honest opinion, was that raters often claim some expertise, simply because they are raters. I here it all the time from people who are raters but know nothing about the nuances of architecture. In the cases Ian is noting -- that seems to be the case. These people are only interested in playability over everything else and are claiming some expertise because they are Golf Digest/Golfweek raters.

And before you jump all over me again and think this is some sort of anti-rater deal, I'm on Golf Digest's panel, as well as two others in Canada. I run into this sort of person on a regular basis -- the people who know next to nothing about golf architecture, but have been assigned some degree of influence because they have a card that says they rate courses. In most instances -- though surely not in all cases -- they haven't read, seen or thought about the matter long enough to offer anything of substance. This is the issue Mr. Andrew is raising.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Ian Andrew

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #76 on: October 03, 2006, 05:42:00 PM »
SL_Solow,

Thank you for the post, it sums things up well and offers a good overview of the role of a committee. You say it better than I can and yes I do appreciate the greater difficulty a superintendent faces with the day to day scrutiny.


Shivas,

I'll sum up your opinion of me:

Ian is an architect.  Ian questioned an incident with a rater.  Ian therefore hates raters , therefore Ian is an asshole know-it-all.  

If that is all you have got out of me for the last seven years, then I'm truly sorry for my contribution to the site.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #77 on: October 03, 2006, 05:52:51 PM »
When I first came to this website, I was a wannabe developer whose dream got thrown under the bus by the golf economy. Then a couple of guys put me up for the Golfweek panel and thank goodness Brad Klein threw me under the bus. Then I thought about being on a Greens Committee until I read this thread. If I keep reading this damn website, soon I am not even going to want to play National anymore!!

______________________

On a serious note, if I needed a Greens Chair at a classic course, Shelly who I have met would be my Greens Chair. Ian who I have not met would absolutely be in my top 3 choices to restore a classic era course. If I met Ian, I am sure he would close me. And Lou would be on my Greens Committee too, because you needs a wildcard or two (right Dr Childs ;))to keep you honest and I do think that Lou brought up some good points.

Now back at it!!

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #78 on: October 03, 2006, 06:08:13 PM »
I think before discussing the relative merits of this type of bunker or that sort of hole design, there should be a mutual agreement on the general goal of the work to be done. What are we out to achieve?

Do we want to restore our course to its original state? Then obviously the argument of the rater holds no merit and will be ignored by the committee, if the architect can show photos or such.

But if we want to make the course easier, because our members complain about the difficult bunkers, then the rater's proposition may very well be a great idea.

Perhaps the problem in this case was that no mutual understanding of the goals was pinned down in writing. In my eyes this would be the responsibility of the architect - he listens and then organizes, refines and spells it out in a mission statement. Nobody has to sign this mission statement, as it has no legal relevance (although I would refer to it in the written contract), but everyone has to read it and agree on it. It provides a basis against which to evaluate any future propositions by raters, members or whoever.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Ian Andrew

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #79 on: October 03, 2006, 07:06:24 PM »
Shivas,

My point is simply that, all things being equal, the idiot greens chair is probably an idiot because he's an idiot, and it's nothing more than that.

We agree completely.

Dave, my point was about the person using the fact that they were a rater to, not as SL_Solow pointed out to put themselves on an equal footing, but to take full control of a meeting and club (this is twice for me in the last year).

I don't take control, unless I'm being asked to do so, but that's usually established in the interview process. Some want me to since its history that I'm dealing with and others want a collaboration of sorts. I'm very up front with clubs about what I'm there to do, so its not like there is a mystery or a secret goal. I perfer to build a consensus, it usually helps because each member of the committee is as important as I am to selling the club's direction going forward. The person in question both times wasn't concensous building - they were trying to build a personal legacy. The only point I wanted to make was the context of their superiority. Where I got into deep water is when I pointed out I've watched this "superiority" displayed more than a few times away from my own work. It was my way to say if "some" of the raters don't get control they may find all the raters are no longer welcome.

This was taken personally and interpreted as condemming all raters. I didn't think I was, but that is certainly the reaction I got - wasn't it. Some of the comments were hard not to take personally.
 
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 07:11:45 PM by Ian Andrew »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2006, 08:30:21 PM »
Mike Sweeney, you're fired as a rater.

Now you are free to become a green chairman.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 08:31:17 PM by Brad Klein »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2006, 09:15:32 PM »
Mike Sweeney, you're fired as a rater.

Now you are free to become a green chairman.

Brad,

If you were Ron Whtten that might have hurt as we all know The Digest guys get on the good courses.  ;)

scott_wood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2006, 09:52:54 PM »
over the sound of shrill whistle....

"Sweeney ,
fifteen yard penalty..
for hitting below the belt"

(and from such a gentleman, too)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2006, 10:36:47 PM »

On a serious note, if I needed a Greens Chair at a classic course, Shelly who I have met would be my Greens Chair.

Ian who I have not met would absolutely be in my top 3 choices to restore a classic era course. If I met Ian, I am sure he would close me.

And Lou would be on my Greens Committee too, because you needs a wildcard or two (right Dr Childs ;))to keep you honest and I do think that Lou brought up some good points.



How quickly you forget !
;D

 

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2006, 12:05:38 PM »
SL,

Nah, man, it was not me who took offense.  You are the one who responded badly to my suggestion that sometimes (e.g. on mandatory caddies) committees act based more on narrow personal preference as opposed to the broad interests of the membership.  Though I have considerable training in social psychology, organizational behavior, and management, I have never been a member of an equity club.  Thus I have not been on a green committee.  To the extent that people are completely different interacting within this organizational structure, your original assertion (that I know nothing) has some validity.

There is, however, a slight consistency problem in my positions on the two threads.  On mandatory caddies I asked whether it was the will of the membership or the preference of key members of the green committee.  With Ian's thread, I offered the possibility that the green chair may have been reflecting the wishes of the membership and not his own.

While I do have sympathy for what Ian and other architects have to endure, any number of us would trade places gladly and with eyes wide open.  That the chair was the sort that we would find distasteful is not in question.  I doubt that his being a rater had much to do with his behavior.

Mike Sweeney,

Me a "wildcard"?  If I knew you, perhaps I might take this personally.  And how dare you group me in a sentence so close to my east coast lefty nemisis, the not-quite-so-evil Doctor Childs!  It will take me some time to get over this one.  Perhaps a day at the National might do the trick.

Seriously, Ian's experience that led to this thread is worthy of a case study.  Golf architects often work on projects for a decade or more, and at any point in time they can be second guessed, maligned, and dismissed based on personnel changes or a shift in the power center.  Unlike most in the corporate world, their name remains attached to the work, either as the original designers or for renovation and changes.  Unfortunately, no one remembers the green committee members who directed the placement and/or style of certain bunkers or added X number of trees.

I can just see some rater playing the course in question, and not liking the lack of thematic consitency of the bunkering, asking one of the assistant pros the name of the architect responsible for the restoration work.  The pro who probably was not there when the work was done, but remembering a name of an architect previously involved with the course, identifies Ian as the person responsible.  The rater talks to his colleagues, gets on an influential gca website and bemoans the work.  Next thing you know, the archie who had nothing to do with the bad bunker work, in fact, lost his commission because he wanted nothing to do with it, becomes the new anti-Christ.  Farfetched?  Maybe so.  On second thought, maybe being a gca is not such a cool, desirable thing.          

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #85 on: October 05, 2006, 07:56:31 PM »
Ian:

Sorry I've missed this thread.  I've been traveling the past couple of weeks and fending off well-intentioned suggestions to collaborate on designs with everyone except Madonna ... which I will rant about in a couple of days so I don't damage my keyboard.  But it's much the same phenomenon, with a bit of marketing b.s. thrown in.

Two classes of helpful green chairmen were left out in the early accounting ... the USGA volunteer type and of course the USGA themselves.  [An aside:  Have you ever seen the report from the USGA Green Section in the sixties which recommends changing the tenth hole at Riviera?]  But you are from Canada so I can see how you missed those.  Trust me, they're just as quick to voice their studied opinion as any rater is.

Raters are just people.  Everybody's got an opinion.  Some people are too anxious to leverage their opinion into action, and that is exactly why so many perfectly good golf courses have been butchered in years past, creating lots of work for you and me ... even if I want nothing to do with it anymore.

I do think it's ludicrous for golf clubs to consider the recommendations of an expert Golf Digest rater who has played the course hundreds of times less than the members themselves have.  But I've seen numerous instances of that, because so many clubs are so caught up in the ratings game.  And God forbid if Brad K. or Whitten makes a comment in their reviews, it will be discussed immediately.

By the same token, some of the most profound changes I've been a part of (including the greens at Yeamans Hall) got rolling because of something I wrote in The Confidential Guide long before I was a paid consultant.

The important thing to remember is that good ideas can come from anywhere.  But so can bad ideas ... and there are a lot more bad ones than good ones.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2006, 10:08:21 PM »

The important thing to remember is that good ideas can come from anywhere.  But so can bad ideas ... and there are a lot more bad ones than good ones.


Tom Doak,

Would you say that that's NOT the case when a pure, true or sympathetic restoration is proposed ?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 10:08:44 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2006, 10:32:25 PM »
Patrick:

The nice thing about a true restoration is that you don't have to argue about the green chairman's ideas.  If they weren't on the course to begin with, you can dismiss them as fine ideas but just not what Mr. Tillinghast or Dr. MacKenzie had in mind.

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