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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Will today's courses be restored?
« on: October 04, 2006, 12:42:15 AM »
Ian's thread about the challenges he faced in dealing with a magazine panelist that is also a green committee chairman made me wonder

Do you think there will ever be a major push to restore the work of Rees, Fazio, and Nicklaus?

The question assumes that their courses will be altered in the coming decades.  Your guess is as good as mine - probably better - as to what form that will take.

Restoration assumes that the changes that are made weaken the end product.  Is the work of today's most prolific architects great enough to warrant restoration projects like we are seeing with the works of Mackenzie, Raynor, Ross, and whoever else?

Gib_Papazian

Re:Will today's courses be restored?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 03:58:03 AM »
Certainly in general, we are far more cognizant today to the architectural pedigree of a golf course than in past decades.

We also have far more detailed photographs and construction records than in the drag-pan era.

Gazing into the theoretical future, I believe Superintendents will be far more sensitive to deviations from the original architecture.

Therefore it will not be necessary (as often) to try and reconstruct the past because golf courses will remain as faithful as possible to their original bunker placement, putting surface dimensions and overall visual appearance.

Years ago, when I was a pedantic asshole (I'm less pedantic, yet the asshole remains), I used to lecture endlessly that the Superintendent, Club Historian and Green Committee must view their positions as *CURATORS* first and foremost.

Nobody listened - except those who did - but the people in authority continued to give monkey after monkey a loaded pistol and wonder why cranial entrails always seemed to be dripping from the clubhouse walls.

If a GREAT painting is in need of restoration, then steps must be carefully taken not to deface the line, composition and brush strokes to be faithful to the original artist.

My friend John Harbottle told me once that people like me forget that golf courses are made of grass, dirt and sand - ever evolving, both for good and ill.

Yet, I am certain he is proud of his body of work; if anyone changed his thoughts on the ground after-the-fact, how that grass, dirt and sand was arranged will hold as great a meaning to him as it would to Renoir of his art.

The truth is, golf courses are only as ephemeral as we let them be. We have the tools now to recreate or restore almost exactly as originally built, even years later.

In the coming decades, change on great courses will be more deliberate - and less at the whim of the average dullard who performs years of political fellacio to eventually hold the magic sceptre of power.

Actually, it is kind of amusing if you break it down. A member is willing to endure an endless series of circle-jerk club committees in order to (eventually) rise to a position of authority, for the sole purpose to dictate how the dirt, grass and sand is going to be piled.

Wow, it just occurred to me that I have spent years studying a subject that is completely irrelevant to anybody except a bunch of dorks like me hitting a ball with a stick.

This golf architecture stuff is a form of insanity. I go to New York at least three times a year and will fight traffic on the L I Expwy for three hours to go look (not even play!) at a bunch of grassy dunes, but won't get off my bar stool at Del Fresco's and go 10 blocks to see the United Nations.  

My gawd, we actually attach importance to this stuff while tyrants are building nuclear weapons and people are getting their limbs blown off in Iraq!
 
And then, when we are done discussing grass and dirt, we argue about which group of testosterone-crazed post-adolescents will be more successful pushing a pointy, oddly shaped object over a chalk line on the grass.

OHMYGAWD, I have just hit upon a new concept!

How about if every football field, instead of being two-dimensional, had a Green Chairman who could build mounds and bunkers here and there? Three-dimensional football fields.

Then, "home field advantage" would mean more than having 80 thousand partisan drunks cheering and booing.

Sounds a bit like the Ryder Cup actually . . . . . .

I think I need to go to bed.

         
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 10:55:09 AM by Gib Papazian »

Gib_Papazian

Re:Will today's courses be restored?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2006, 04:07:32 AM »
John,

I just realized I never answered your original question:

"Do you think there will ever be a major push to restore the work of Rees, Fazio, and Nicklaus?"

The good ones, yeah. But there are so many that look alike, their perceived architectural pedigree has been diluted terribly.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 04:12:29 AM by Gib Papazian »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Will today's courses be restored?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2006, 05:58:42 AM »
1. (1) Sand Hills Golf Club (p) 9.41
Mullen, Neb.
Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw, 1995

2. (2) Pacific Dunes (r) 9.23
Bandon, Ore.
Tom Doak, 2001

3. (3) Friar's Head (p) 8.72
Baiting Hollow, N.Y.
Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw, 2003

4. (4) Whistling Straits (Straits) (r) 8.49
Kohler, Wis.
Pete Dye, 1997

5. (6) Pete Dye Golf Club (p) 8.27
Bridgeport, W.Va.
Pete Dye, 1994

6. (8) Muirfield Village Golf Club (p) 8.19
Dublin, Ohio
Jack Nicklaus, 1974

7. (7) The Golf Club (p) 8.17
New Albany, Ohio
Pete Dye, 1967

8. (9) Shadow Creek Golf Club (r) 8.10
North Las Vegas, Nev.
Tom Fazio, 1990

9. (5) Bandon Dunes (r) 8.02
Bandon, Ore.
David McLay Kidd, 1999

10. (11) Kinloch Golf Club (p) 8.00
Manakin-Sabot, Va.
Lester George, 2000
 
Take a look at the Top 10 from the Golfweek list. I think all of them today are controlled by one person or have the Mucci benevolent dictator rule in place. Pete Dye has probably changed or will change soon. If I had to guess based on reports, new owners would soften the course. In the early 1900's clubs were founded by groups of people who found an architect and built a course. See the members of the NYAC who founded Winged Foot. Those early committees probably have similar structure to how the club is run today. Now it is typically one guy. Of course there were exceptions such as National.

It will be interesting to see how modern courses transition after an owner's death. It may not be appropriate here, but maybe JakaB can comment on how Victoria and Terry Friedman's family are guiding the club into the future? Should only a Fazio family member be allowed to touch the course in the future?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Will today's courses be restored?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2006, 09:01:48 AM »
I sincerely think we are going thru a phase of "restoration" today.  Of course courses will be renovated and redesigned but having to maintain the original intent of the original architect is a fad for most courses(THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS)  I have seen some pretty good renovation/remodels done over the footprint of some of the "deceased grand master potentates of classical architecture".  Druid Hills comes to mind as does East Lake.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

Re:Will today's courses be restored?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2006, 09:11:55 AM »
I think many of the greens with overly aggressive internal contours that have been built in the last few years will be renovated for the memberships enjoyment.  Some renovations may go too far leading to future restorations.  Save those Doak and C&C drawings if you can get them as they may be vital in getting a job in 50 or so years..

Ian Andrew

Re:Will today's courses be restored?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2006, 09:36:43 AM »
Certainly in general, we are far more sensitive today to the architectural pedigree of a golf course than in past decades.

Well put Gib.

One very important fact is that every course on that list is extremely well documented and photographed due to the change in interest in architecture.

One interesting question cropped up from Mike's list. Where would you go to for the high water mark for Muirfield Village or Pete Dye GC?

I guess the question that would be the most fun is where would you "restore" Crooked Stick too? That would be an interesting debate because it rivals the Merion debate on when.

Gib_Papazian

Re:Will today's courses be restored?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2006, 11:50:49 AM »
Ian,

That is a difficult question in some cases, but fairly simple in others.

When Karl Olson undertook a restoration of NGLA, he told me that the first decision was to pick a particular time in its history and go with that.

We've discussed this before in the Treehouse.

The problem he faced was that C.B. did constant tweaks and experimentation, building bunkers here and there and then later filling them in.

From a historical standpoint, he identified the period following the first international matches under the theory that C.B. threw his heart, soul and best ideas into the preparations - and therefore that particular time was the so-called "high water mark."

The Merion debate perhaps ought to be approached in the same manner. The evolution (or devolution) of the bunkers took time to properly age - long after Wilson was gone.

If a well-documented period can be identified - before any ham-handed tinkering and with sufficient photographic or collateral evidence - that is your answer.

The argument starts when - for the sake of accuracy - you have to raze a change that was not part of the original design, but popular with the members or has some historical significance.

In the case of Muirfield Village or Crooked Stick . . . . . obviously in the distant future . . . . . figure out when Jack or Pete last made a change (in Pete's case, assuming it was not against his wishes) and go with it.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 11:55:30 AM by Gib Papazian »

Ian Andrew

Re:Will today's courses be restored?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2006, 12:29:06 PM »
Gib,

I enjoyed you answer and the reference to the National was excellent context. It was something that I did not know.

I agree with the comments on Pete and Jack. Where it gets interesting (looking down the road ) is with a course like Crooked Stick where some historians may chose to argue that the highwater mark was before the major renovation by Pete for the PGA.

I don't think my example is perfect which creates holes in my premise immediately, but it is one of those courses where someone could choose (thinking 50 to 100 years out) an earlier date and make an arguement (like they do now - both correctly and incorrectly) that it should go back to the time when it had the "most importance."

Just a thought, and there must be a much better example of this.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 12:31:14 PM by Ian Andrew »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Will today's courses be restored?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2006, 12:36:59 PM »
Not sure MV will ever get restored. JN made changes each of the last few years, and I believe will continue to do so like ANGC as his tournament showcase. It makes sense that as he refines his gca ideas, he would refine MV to showcase them.

Crooked Stick is an interesting example - I think Dye said he actually liked it better before changes.  As early Dye, it would be nice to have it as a museum of his early thinking.  However, you could argue the PGA was a high point, just like Merion restoring to 1930 as their high point, if not original design.

On the other hand, imagine if golf continues to change at the pace it has since the 1930's.  Just as many courses will have been changed for all the same reasons, distance, convert to munis, etc. and just as few will merit total restoration as in the past.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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