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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2006, 11:22:17 PM »
Gary,
Thanks for the clarification! I needed it! You got to admit though, Teddy would have added some class to it if he would have said it. (Bully, Bully!)

Jeff,
Careful now, we wouldn't want to upset Lou. (even though your right.)

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2006, 11:32:42 PM »
It seems absurd but I could see how some green committee could fall for this.  I'm assuming this panelist would be a member and hopefully show some knowledge of architecture and maintance knowledge.  

When I was on the green committee the super basically blew me off on everything and still does to this day although he blows off comments by Tom Doak, Gib Papazian and others only to listen and pray to a 4th tier architect who is a nice guy but knows virtually nothing about classic architecure.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2006, 11:50:47 PM »
Ian,
I have never had a rater as a green chairman but I have had a guy that had a friend that was on the PGA"tour".....and we did have a chance for him to spend about 2 hours with the committee while they drooled all over themselves as he told them what they needed to do.  And it was obvious why he had putting problems because many of his ideas did not take into account that water needs to run downhill.  It is amazing what a committee will listen to.
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2006, 12:30:47 AM »
Ian, thanks for your reply.  Some professions are a lot harder than they were.  Travel agents are an example of one fighting massive fee compression.  High School football coaches are faced with challenging parents on a level greater than their predecessors.  It is no longer enough for a newspaper writer to report the news - they have to 'make it' now because internet and cable media are timelier.

Hey, I feel for ya'.  There wasn't a lot awareness of golf course architecture 30 years ago.  I'm from the Twin Cities and folks there didn't know who designed the courses if they weren't Donald Ross.  Today?  People that have never been to any know that Stanley Thompson did North Oaks, A.W. Tillinghast did Golden Valley, and Seth Raynor did Somerset.

There is more attention focused on golf course architecture than ever before.  This means more scrutiny for people like you.  

I don't think the answer is to try putting the toothpaste back in the tube and decrease interest in course design.  Rather, people of influence like Ron Whitten, Ran Morrissett, Geoff Shackleford, and Brad Klein need to increase education of the masses through their outlets.  (Klein prints a "Rater's Notebook" for many new courses he visits.)  

Golfweek has mandatory retreats hosted by Brad that feature guest speakers like Pete Dye, Rees Jones, and Tom Marzolf.  A quarterly newsletter supplements these efforts.  I'm told people violating standards of decorum are rebuked or even terminated.  I just don't see that the magazine panel is as much the problem as a bad apple or three.

Would this person not be a problem if he lacked the credential as a member of Golf Digest's panel?  We have a different perspective on this so I don't know that we can see eye-to-eye.  Still, you seem to have quickly backed off the broadbrush attack with an "I wasn't talking about you" response.  How many guys are using their presence on a panel to assume a role of leadership within a club with the intent of trumping the design intentions of qualified architects like you?

Keep doing what you know is right and you'll be fine in the long run.  Agents for NBA plaeyrs are routinely fired and replaced by family or friends of the players that are far less qualified.  Once released from prison, Amare's crack-using mom saw fit to push John Wolf out so she could have more involvement in negotiating a shoe deal.  (The saga wound up in court with Wolf trying to collect $200,000 he fronted the kid beginning while he was still playing in HS.)  Lebronze James bumped Aaron Godwin in favor of three HS buddies.

If clubs begin listening to someone like me over someone like you that'll be to their detriment.  Clearly articulate your vision and beliefs while respecting the club's wishes and I doubt that will happen.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2006, 12:32:09 AM »
Brad:  Care to share that handbook with the rest of us?  Or at least me?

Thanks.


Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2006, 12:41:42 AM »
Ryan, is that a trick question? Your email is blocked!

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2006, 01:06:55 AM »
Ian, in the case of the bullying fellow who becomes green chairman or in-house expert on course architecture -- and I would not for a second dispute your account of how common that is inside club politics -- I really don't think the fault is the rating panel or some magazine's raters. I think it's ego. That kind of person is just as likely to say,

"As a scratch golfer . . . "

"As the club champion . . ."

"As someone who has played in the U.S. Amateur . . ."

In other words, I think that while they might well be using their rater "status" to claim privilege, whatever it is they are laying claim to isn't the cause of their boasting, it's just a convenient object to exploit in order to impress. I can spot such folks pretty quickly at some private club gathering when they rise to clear their throats and ask some thunderous question. We try to keep such blowhards off our panel, but I can't vouch for ther other magazines.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2006, 01:09:31 AM by Brad Klein »

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2006, 08:04:15 AM »
I am currently doing a golf course bunker project and a Golf Digest rater visited yesterday.  I am not sure if he is a member of the club, but he made no comments toward things being right or wrong regarding the work being done.  As with a lot of remodel work - The pro wants more exciting bunkering and the Supt. wants less excitement and more easily maintained bunkering.

Last weekend I played the Sand Hills with a Golf Digest rater in a 40-50 mph wind on a rainy day (pure hell for most people but sure pleasure for the likes of our group!)  He did not express to anyone that he was a rater and he paid for the golf.  

Ian, if your work is good (as I trust it is) it will speak volumes and the rater-chairman will take full credit for it ;).  Good Luck.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2006, 08:12:26 AM »
Ian,
As Brad and John indicate above  there seem to be many ways in which some of these individuals become perceived as having knowledge due to a title or association.  And you can usualy spot them.  And like John says many people never had any idea who their architect of record was for their club untl recently when it became the "cool" thing to do.  That is why we have people begging to proclaim that one of the deceased masters of classical architecture drove up the drive of their club one day.  It is amazing to me how much authourity and knowledge some of these types acquire by paying $75 .  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2006, 11:43:50 AM »
my three favorite rater questions

Can I bring 3 guests? 131 times
What are your greens stimping? 51 times
Why don't you plant more fescue? 21 times
How much did you spend on the azaleas? 1 time (He was referring to the indiginous mountain laurel of which there are about 350 acres of on the property)
I replied "61 million $, but we make it up on outside play"

God help the club with a rater as a golf/greens chairman
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2006, 12:33:19 PM »

Ian, if your work is good (as I trust it is) it will speak volumes and the rater-chairman will take full credit for it ;).  Good Luck.

Ron Farris,

The problem is that Ian's unadulterated work may not make it to the golf course due to the influence of a chairman, committee, board or President.

That's not to say that the architect is always right.

Certainly, if we've learned anything, it's that some classic courses designed by spectacular architects have been altered and disfigured over time.  

Who is responsible ?

I believe the club shoulders the majority of the blame, but, the architect isn't immune from criticism and responsibility.

TEPaul doesn't want to blame anyone.
He feels that the same forces responsible for crop circles are the ones that disfigured all of these golf courses.

 

Brad Klein,

It's an imperfect world.

Rarely do all of the planets align at existing clubs such that a harmony exists between club members, club leadership, club staff and outside consultants, before, during and after a project.

I happen to adhere to Tom MacWood's theory of "don't touch it" but, for different reasons.  While I have seen clubs improve holes or features, the great majority of the alterations have been to the detriment of the golf course.  And, I"m not talking about lengthening, I'm talking about feature displacement, feature alteration, or feature additives that go against the grain of the architectural integrity of the design.

Ian has merely identified a subset of difficult green chairman.
You've identified several more.

In the ultimate, I suppose that you'd have to examine the green chairman's body of work in order to assess whether he's been an asset or a liabilty to the golf course, and/or an asset or liability to his club.  Sometimes, the two aren't synonymous.

The problem I see at local clubs is that time has taken them further and further away from their architectural roots, and, that, combined with high membership turnover over the years have conspired to obscure the design integrity of the golf course, leaving it exposed to further alteration.

Once the first domino falls, there is no stopping the process.

And, while some will say that improvements CAN be made, and I don't doubt that, it depends upon what the alleged improvements are, who's suggesting them, and for what purpose.

That's a lot of moving parts from a lot of moving people and a dangerous path to follow.

Revolving green chairman tend to play the "I can top that" game in relationship to the previous green chairman's work.

That's why I prefered groomed dictators.
The golf course tends to stay better protected by their continuity of thought.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2006, 12:42:14 PM »
Pat,

groomed dictators or simply thoughtful people who know their place. I'd settle for either as green chairmen, just not the two-year revolving door types or the frustrated magazine panelists.

I agree that piecemeal tinkering of 3-4 greens and 12 bunkers (or some famed par-3 12th hole!) never works, but I've seen plenty of wholesale restorations of the entire golf course that have worked brilliantly. Maybe you really do need to travel more:

May I suggest you visit: Minikahda, Beverly, Skokie, Lake Shore, Idle Hour, Mountain Lake, Brookside, Franklin Hills, Cape Fear, Pine Needles, Morris County, Aronimink, Augusta CC, Lookout Mountain. It can be done right, when it's done thoroughly.  
« Last Edit: October 01, 2006, 12:44:30 PM by Brad Klein »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2006, 12:50:10 PM »
Brad,

I'd agree, except for one thing.

The number of successful restorations are vastly outnumbered by unsuccessful restorations and disfigurements.

And, if the course hadn't been touched and disfigured in the first place, there would be no need to restore it.

Hence, my position tends to align with two ideals, embarking upon thoughtful restoration work and not touching original or "high water mark" work.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2006, 03:37:07 PM »
Pat, you are right, but for a different reason than you think. Historically, the disfigurements vastly outnumber the good ones. Correct on that point. But a lot of that is from awful work in the 1960s-1980s. Today the trend is reversing itself mightily. There's hope, though a long way to go. I won't make out every project or every self-proclaimed "restorer" as a great story, but the positive trend is discernible.

Brad

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2006, 05:17:16 PM »
Brad Klein,

I'd agree with your thoughts with respect to the continuing of the general trend toward restoration.

However, in the last year or so I've noticed a number of courses that are considering adding length for no particular purpose other than to get their scorecard total up.

I've also been alarmed by the number of courses that are considering moving strategic features from location A to location B, as opposed to adding Location B and leaving Location A as it is.

I think the greatest opponent/impediment of restoration work is the distance issue and excessive green speed.

All too often I hear clubs speak in terms of modernization, and/or the need to combat the distance issue, and accomodate high green speeds.

What I find particularly interesting and frustrating is that most of these courses offer a challenge currently beyond the ability of the membership, including the best players.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2006, 08:42:28 PM »
my three favorite rater questions

Can I bring 3 guests? 131 times
What are your greens stimping? 51 times
Why don't you plant more fescue? 21 times
How much did you spend on the azaleas? 1 time (He was referring to the indiginous mountain laurel of which there are about 350 acres of on the property)
I replied "61 million $, but we make it up on outside play"

God help the club with a rater as a golf/greens chairman


Wow, that's pretty presumptuous to invite your own foursome.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2006, 08:43:07 PM by John_Conley »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2006, 09:39:29 PM »
 :)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2006, 09:41:52 AM »
Brad:  Care to share that handbook with the rest of us?  Or at least me?

Thanks.



jrp@cliffordlaw.com

Thanks.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2006, 10:49:02 AM »
I think Ian's point is that the Golf Digest raters (and that's who he's speaking of in this case) seem to have added credibility with the lawyers, doctors, dentists and teachers that make up most green committees. That can prove problematic since most people don't have a clue when it comes to golf architecture and restoration. Since they don't know anything about the subject, they tend to turn to the person that claims they do understand. And apparently a low handicap and a raters card does the trick.
It is interesting that the notion of having a low handicap necessarily means you understand more about design.
Of course this could be improved by simply eliminating greens committees altogether. I have no understanding of why a dentist should have any input on his club's design.
It reminds me of a quote from the author, Margaret Atwood. Once, while at a party, she was approached by a surgeon who said that he planned on writing a work of fiction. Atwood replied, "That's strange -- because I was thinking of doing some surgery." Sometimes, apparently, people see other jobs as somehow being easy.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2006, 10:51:52 AM »
What I find particularly interesting and frustrating is that most of these courses offer a challenge currently beyond the ability of the membership, including the best players.
This should be the crux of the matter. Recently a noted Toronto course -- already the hardest in the area -- spent a great deal of money adding new longer tees and making the course even more difficult. Of course no one but visiting pros play these back tees -- which makes it strange that the membership would agree to spend the cash to add them. Very odd indeed. I just don't understand the mentality.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2006, 12:11:44 PM »
Ian,

I do not come to the defense of the green chairman/rater.  However, I have to wonder how an individual such as you described could have risen to such a position of influence and authority.  Perhaps the club in question is an abnormal one.

I've been playing golf for some 35 years during which time I've spoken to countless club professionals and superintendents, as well as a number of architects.  One of the things I learned is that many seem to have little regard about the others' contribution.  The pro blames the customer for impossibly high expectations and demands, and the supt. for inadequate conditions and setup.  The supt. blames the architect for all the maintenance nightmares he forced upon him, bemoans the owner for meager budgets and pay, and hates the pro for forcing an earlier and longer list of course prep demands each day.  The architect blames all of the stakeholders for all sorts of reasons why their design did not achieve its intended potential.  From each's individual perspective, no one else knows anything.

I happen to believe that experience playing golf extensively and widely counts for something.  Why some architects believe that the customer has so little to contribute is beyond my current understanding.  Most businesses value customer knowledge and input in their product design and marketing.  Perhaps part of the reason some courses are having a hard time presently has something to do with what seems to be the prevailing attitude among the technical types that they are the only ones with  "learned", worthwhile ideas.

Ian, most of us in the business world have learned that we have to prove ourselves every day of our professional lives.  If that includes having to provide a resume to new faces in our employer group after 10 years, why take umbrage?  Take it as an opportunity to tout your new accomplishments and get the newbies behind you.    

Tommy,

I don't get mad at you.  And I am no longer surprised either.  After all, you are just being one of the boys.  

Ian Andrew

Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2006, 02:27:47 PM »
Lou,

“I've been playing golf for some 35 years during which time I've spoken to countless club professionals and superintendents, as well as a number of architects.  One of the things I learned is that many seem to have little regard about the others' contribution.  The pro blames the customer for impossibly high expectations and demands, and the supt. for inadequate conditions and setup.  The supt. blames the architect for all the maintenance nightmares he forced upon him, bemoans the owner for meager budgets and pay, and hates the pro for forcing an earlier and longer list of course prep demands each day.  The architect blames all of the stakeholders for all sorts of reasons why their design did not achieve its intended potential.  From each's individual perspective, no one else knows anything.”

I appreciate being lumped in with your generality, considering you have never worked with me or know nothing of my work. Tell you what go to the testimonials part of my web site and read the last one and see if you view me any different.

I happen to believe that experience playing golf extensively and widely counts for something.  Why some architects believe that the customer has so little to contribute is beyond my current understanding.  Most businesses value customer knowledge and input in their product design and marketing.  Perhaps part of the reason some courses are having a hard time presently has something to do with what seems to be the prevailing attitude among the technical types that they are the only ones with "learned", worthwhile ideas.

Just remember Lou that a horse designed by a committee is a camel. What do you think a course designed by GCA would look like? It may have interesting features but continuity won't be a strength. Without a vision a golf course is a collection of bits, without an overview a golf course will cater to specific interests. I think you underestimate the people you just mentioned. Your scenario sounded more like infighting than insight into the industry. I generally find that the relashionships between the various groups are very good.

Ian, most of us in the business world have learned that we have to prove ourselves every day of our professional lives.  If that includes having to provide a resume to new faces in our employer group after 10 years, why take umbrage?  Take it as an opportunity to tout your new accomplishments and get the newbies behind you.

I was just pointing out that even someone with as good a track record as Bruce gets his talent questioned. Hey, I know I’m only as good as the last job or even the last phase of the master plan. I can be fired a hell of a lot easier than any of you can since I I never have a formal contract. That makes me always accountable for the work I do.

As Brad or Rob or someone else said, this thread is to point out a new difficulty that has suddenly appeared that effects what I do. I think the raters are taking this as a question of their knowledge about golf course architecture. I think a few of the raters are out of hand but obviously you disagree and that’s fine.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 02:31:30 PM by Ian Andrew »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2006, 02:39:05 PM »
I appreciate being lumped in with your generality, considering you have never worked with me or know nothing of my work.

Interesting.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2006, 04:15:08 PM »
Ian,

You did your own lumping.  I was only responding to your comments which I have seen/heard a number of other times here and eslewhere.  Everyone has opinions, and as the well known aphorism suggests, like a certain part of the body, some stink more than others.

I would be the last to suggest that a rater or a group of them design and build a course.  Come to think of it, as long as my money is not involved, it may be an interesting thing to see.  BTW, I no more underestimate professionals in any field than I do raters.  Over time, however, I have found that some are much better than others.

BTW2, many of us in the private sector in the U.S. work without the safety net of a contract.  In right to work states, probably half of the country, we can be dismissed without cause unless you are in one of the protected classes (race, gender, age, etc.).  So, I am sorry, but having to submit a resume doesn't seem to be much of a burden.

BTW3, I never argued that raters have a monopoly on knowledge of gca.  I will, however, suggest that neither do golf course architects.  Can you consider the possibility that having seen certain things that worked well at a variety of places, that a rater or a well-traveled gca enthusiast might be able to make valuable suggestions?  Or is that guy just totally blind and oblivious?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "Golf Rater" Green's Chairman
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2006, 04:42:02 PM »
Most of the time, when I hear good golfers or golfers who think they are knowledgable speak up at such planning meetings, they are speaking from a range of experience that favors their own games, or that favors what they like to see. I rarely see members speak on the general interest of what's best for the club.

The other problem with following such people is that they can't be fired. I am a firm believer that you should only hire qualified people to do work who are experienced and whom you can fire or sue if they screw up. You can't get rid of members, unfortunately.

I suppose as equity stake holders members have perfect right to speak up; but architects, like superintedents, need to learn how to listen without conveying agreement or committing to following what they say.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 07:17:32 PM by Brad Klein »

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