[Ian Andrew]

I was responding to Mike Young’s thread when I got sidetracked onto the latest and greatest problem I face as an architect.

I recently have run into a new and more dangerous type of green's chairman or committee member. It’s the guy who stands up at the first meeting and says “I'm a Golf Digest rater and I’ve seen enough great courses to know a thing or two about architecture; and this is what we need to do.”

Last time I checked all you need is a (low) handicap, a pulse and a friend who suggests you would make a good candidate. I don’t remember a written exam, a list of books that you should read, or any other educational process to “understand” the different principles and ideas of architecture.  When did this group go from picking their list of favorites to believing they know what’s best for a club. I have even experienced some of these guys sending their written suggestions to clubs on how they can improve. Somehow many raters have associated a rater’s card is proof that they know everything they need to know about Golf Architecture.

I’ve always prided myself on the fact that I work with other people and I find most green’s committee members also try to work together to do the best that we all can. I certainly don’t play the role of dictator since other peoples suggestion can often lead to better ideas, and after all the best ideas should always be the goal. In my limited experience with a couple of these guys now, I’ve yet to find one that doesn’t want to run the entire show themselves.

Do Golf, Golf Digest and Golfweek have a code of ethics for raters?
Would they encourage architects to report this behavior to them?

I have found over time that the expectations of raters (from clubs) are continually going up and their feeling of self worth is expanding too. Is it time rater pay there own way to take away some of the status that promotes this behavior?

Obviously they’re not all bad people, but aura of self-importance has certainly developed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian,

That's the type of combination that would bring forth the words:

"RUN FOREST, RUN"

It is a dangerous combination.

The answer as to how to deal with it lies in the composition of the committee.

Are they knowledgeable, passionate about their course and golf, or just sheep walking the wire ?

If it's the former, you've got a chance to appeal to common sense.

If it's the latter, you've got to go higher up, to the Board and/or President.

If that doesn't work,

"RUN FOREST, RUN !"

[Joe Hancock]

At the point that the GC stands up and says that, the appropriate response would be

" Ladies and gentlemen, you have already found your man". Then leave....quickly......or at the very least, leave after the filet.....

Joe

[Ian Andrew]

Joe,

The last club this happened at, I had been working there for more than 10 years. Some courses you pick up your marbles and leave, others because of architectural pedigree are tougher to leave .

I was talking with Bruce Hepner last night about the fact that we both have been asked for a resume from clubs we've been working with for years. New people come into a board and wonder why we are working there. More often than not they have no idea who we are or why we were hired.

[Joe Hancock]

Joe,

The last club this happened at, I had been working there for more than 10 years. Some courses you pick up your marbles and leave, others because of architectural pedigree are tougher to leave .

I was talking with Bruce Hepner last night about the fact that we both have been asked for a resume from clubs we've been working with for years. New people come into a board and wonder why we are working there. More often than not they have no idea who we are or why we were hired.

Ian,

In jest, was my last reply. Of course the issues you state above make things difficult, along with the realities of providing for one's family. With every difficult situation comes an opportunity to learn something about diplomacy, social skills and patience....and probably a long list of other things.

Maybe this situation requires a little help from your mob connections...

Joe

[Brad Klein]

Ian, I just emailed you via attached file our "rater's handbook," which includes a code of ethics. We don't have sanctions against pretender green chairmen / architecture experts, but it would be a great idea. We just ask our raters to act like ladies and gentlemen, which would be enough to rule out the kind of behavior you indicate.

You point out an interesting problem I find at every club. The design stuff is pretty easy to do. 85% of renovation work is club politics.

[Glen Rapoport]

Ian,

As in any "profession", having to deal with the varied personalities that populate a golf club, it is sometimes helpful to step back and take a deep breath and figure out how to turn what might be an obstacle into something positive.  Having a 'rater' on the Greens Committee or even as Chairman might mean that you are dealing with some one who has been off the property and can appreciate what is possible, secondly has seen failure, and lastly and hopefully is morphing into someone who will challenge you but be your partner in enhancing the course or projejct.  There are all kinds of 'Rater's out there.....probably Architects as well.....
As a Country Club 'type' myself, we think we know everything....just as the Club Manager. What you have to do is figure out how to lead us to the answer without telling us what it is, have us discover it, embrace it as our own, and then take credit for it.   That's a win win for all parties.

Glen

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ian,
It's really simple. You hire a faction of the Rhode Island Brotherhood to keep this chairman in check. There is no one more brutal, nor tolerant then that "Local."

As Teddy Roosevelt, I think it was Teddy Roosevelt once said, Grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow......

If any Greens Chairman/Panelist were to do that and if I was a wiseguy or Rhode Island "Brother", I would hand him his nuts in a brown paper bag as I was pushing him down into the "hole" he just dug for himself.

It's as simple as that.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Oh yes, for those who get offended easily, I was joking....

GO DODGERS!!!!!

[John_Conley]

I was talking with Bruce Hepner last night about the fact that we both have been asked for a resume from clubs we've been working with for years. New people come into a board and wonder why we are working there. More often than not they have no idea who we are or why we were hired.

Ian, this seems to say more about club politics than anything else.  If they don't have a great succession plan where there is better continuity you could get caught in the wake.

I guess I'm not sure who you'd like to work with if it isn't someone well-traveled with familiarity with different design principles.  Is the problem that the person is a rater for a golf magazine or is the problem that the person thinks they know what is best without considering the rest of the membership they are supposed to be representing?

Methinks you wouldn't mind working with Jonathan Cummings, Glen Rapoport, Tom Huckaby, Nick Martin, Nick Ficorelli, Kevin Bedola, Doug Sobieski, or many of the other people I've met that represent magazines as panelists.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,

There isn't a person here that wouldnt love seeing Tom Huckaby dumped into a trash can, wrapped in a burlap bag filled with limedust. Unfortunately I don't think Santa Theresa has a greens committee.....

(Just kiddin' Huck)

[Brad Klein]

Tommy's on a roll because his Dodgers finally clinched a playoff spot today.

By the way, it's "green committee." And I am now writing a screenplay in which you chair one! It's a Bob Graves-designed course, and you buy these falsified documents from a guy in Salt Lake City (get it?) that prove your club was "really" designed by one of the late-latter day architecture saints, and you spearhead a faux restoration to a design that never existed.

[John_Conley]

John,

There isn't a person here that wouldnt love seeing Tom Huckaby dumped into a trash can, wrapped in a burlap bag filled with limedust.

He's harmless, no?  Never met him but a friend wants to coordinate a golf trip with both of us next summer.  Maybe I should opt out.

[John_Conley]

And I am now writing a screenplay in which you chair one! It's a Bob Graves-designed course, and you buy these falsified documents from a guy in Salt Lake City (get it?) that prove your club was "really" designed by one of the late-latter day architecture saints, and you spearhead a faux restoration to a design that never existed.

Golf movies have limited appeal, but count me in for that one!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brad, Can Joe Pesci be in it? Please!!!!!!

John, Bring a baseball bat with you in case he needs to be corrected. That's what Huckaby needs some times, correction.....

[Tommy_Naccarato]

You can be part of the Florida Brotherhood, but if you get caught skimming profits from the top, well, you can be part of the Florida swamp!

[Ian Andrew]

John and Glen,

Seeing a lot of golf does not necessarily guarantee the person understands what they are seeing.

My nephew loves to take me to museums when I go see him in LA (in particularly the Getty Museum). I love Monet but have no idea how he creates what he does and I do paint and draw. I just know that I love what I see. How would I be any use to an modern impressionist in an advisory role.

What I’m talking about is not financial or direction. These people want to place the bunkers, pick the style and be on site for direction. Remember I do restoration as much as renovation where decisions are not based upon my own ideas but upon historical fact. So tell me why a “panelist” would be more desirable to work with than any other member.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

And when was the last time you were in LA and didn't call?

[Ian Andrew]

Tommy,

I did, but unfortunately you weren't feeling very well. It was three years back and we were going to head down to San Diego to see Todd at Barona and a day at the Super's show. I had an interview to join the dark side that week-end.

[Ian Andrew]

Brad thanks for sending the handbook.

I read through the Golf Week handbook and it is fairly clear about a code of ethics and behavior. If this was followed completely, we would all be in a better place.

I can get hold on the Golf Digest one fairly easily and will check that next week.

[John_Conley]

These people want to place the bunkers, pick the style and be on site for direction. Remember I do restoration as much as renovation where decisions are not based upon my own ideas but upon historical fact. So tell me why a “panelist” would be more desirable to work with than any other member.

1. How many of these people are there?  Are you talking about an epidemic or one person?

2. I have no idea who you are or what you do, but I certainly would if I were working with you as a member of a green committee at a club where you were engaged.

3. To become a panelist I had to write an essay for Brad at the request of Dave Seanor.  Individual course ratings for the panel are periodically reviewed by others and maintained in a database where there are safeguards in place to monitor the statistical validity or integrity.  Regularly I will travel for the express purpose of seeing interesting designs.  Ian, there's nothing specific about a magazine panelist that would help - but if you are selecting at random I'd guess that the pool of panelists is at least as good as the pool of members as a whole.

It seems like you are having to re-sell yourself to someone you shouldn't need to.  Without additional episodes to confirm that this happens frequently I'll be unswayed by your broadbrush attempt to lump a group with an unflattering label.  Perhaps the thread is about A "Golf Rater" Green Chairman.

I know of no movement afoot between the panelists from the golf magazines to ramrod their own design theories at the expense of Ian Andrew's efforts.

[Adam Clayman]

I read through the Golf Week handbook and it is fairly clear about a code of ethics and behavior.

Ian, There is another unwritten rule that contains the sentiment that Golfweek panelists never start a sentence with "I'm a Golfweek panelist..."

[Gary Daughters]

"As Teddy Roosevelt, I think it was Teddy Roosevelt once said, Grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow......"

Tommy..

I believe that was Richard "Dick" Nixon

[Jeff Goldman]

"As Teddy Roosevelt, I think it was Teddy Roosevelt once said, Grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow......"

Tommy..

I believe that was Richard "Dick" Nixon

In All the President's Men, Woodward and Bernstein quote Ben Bradlee saying that Charles Colson has a sign in his office reading "if you got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

Of course now, we have a President and Vice-President who follow that advice from a big Republican, now born again.  Crossing party lines, our Secretary of Defense more closely resembles Robert McNamara, though without the pointer.  

[Ian Andrew]

John,


If this situation happened once I'd dismiss it as one of the more amusing things I deal with. I have had the “I’m a panelist and I know a thing or two line dropped on me three times in two years and twice in recent times. That’s not funny anymore. There is always someone on each committee who has all the answers but saying you’re a golf____rater does come with some cache to the other members of the green committee and therein lies the difference.

Being a rater is fun, hell I’ve done it too, but raters need to stick to the task at hand.


Adam,

It's a good rule but we all know the first line out is "I'm a _____ panelist" because that is the way to get the complimentary round.


I really have lost my sense of humour today, sorry.

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