[Patrick_Mucci]

Time and time again I hear that the answer to the hi-tech and distance problem is to defend the golf course at the green

But, there is no defense..... and they're not building any.

I was watching the Amex championship where Tiger is leading at 15 under at the halfway mark.

While it was the highlights, everyone was rolling the ball in on greens with very little movement.

There are no pronounced contours or steep slopes and I don't see any golf courses gravitating toward those features.

Yes, greens have slope in them, but, pronounced contours are becoming rarer, to the point of extinction in modern design.

Hence, the defeating of the architectural features and the assault on par continues unabated.

Anyone familiar with the 7th green on the 3rd nine at Montclair understands what I mean by substantial contouring.

A back to front, high tier seperates the back 1/2 of the green into three segments.  The left side, the high tier and the right side, with the front of the green sloped back to front.

Where are the 5th and 13th greens at Somerset,  the 5th and 14th greens at ANGC, the 1st, 3rd and 6th greens at NGLA and many other OLD greens that had pronounced character and why aren't modern day architects producing pronounced contouring with tiers, mounds and plateaus ?

If the green is to be the last line of defense, architects seem to be weakening, not strengthening them.

[Adam Clayman]

and they're not building any.

Patrick,

Who are they?

And,

Have you seen everything new being built to make such a claim?

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I agree with you Patrick I’d like to see more strongly moulded greens - however even strongly moulded greens have to have areas with a relatively even putting surfaces. If the “great” golfers can drop there ball in on these “greens within greens” with calculable predictabilty due to the shorter approach distances, ease of getting height to reduce run, and back spin capabilities then a strongly moulded green won’t make much difference to the “great” golfers.

It seems the only way to make it less predictable combined with a strongly moulded green is forcing the great golfer  to have flatter trajectories for the approach. If the greens were “bouncier” making a high trajectory into the greens unpredictable it may make it more difficult. Not only firm and fast greens but “hard” and fast and lengthening the approach.

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
I agree.  And I think the only way left is to decrease usable target size which would make it too difficult for 99.99 percent of us.  So I think we have to just sit back and appreciate what the 8 to 12 guys that are on their game (out of the 150 best in the world ) can do during a particular week.  Because overall handicaps haven't dropped that much.  JMO

[wsmorrison]

I disagree with bold contours being an appropriate design feature unless those contours tie in to the surrounds in a natural manner if constructed or mimic existing contours.  While it does create more difficulty, it is not an aesthetic I find most appealing.  It is better in the manner that a few of the really talented modern designers use but is not at all interesting to see formalized shapes of mounding or swales that appear wholly unnatural.  It may be fun to putt on a green with a horseshoe mound on it, but I'd prefer to see such artifical devices on miniature golf.  The humps and bumps on the Himalayas putting green are a lot more fun anyway.

In most cases, I think the interplay of slopes is a far more appealing design style and one that is in fact harder to read and has a greater psychological impact.  Such natural looking features can, in the hands of a talented architect, still impact strategy back to the tee just like the more artifical devices but do so in a harmony that simply does not exist in unnatural looking contours.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Time and time again I hear that the answer to the hi-tech and distance problem is to defend the golf course at the green

But, there is no defense..... and they're not building any..

Pat

You should know better then to make all encompassing generalities.

You've been to Friars Head.  You've played #1,5,7,8,9,14 greens.  Sand Hills too.

It looks from the pictures that Ballyneal has greens that would qualify as do Dismal RIver.

Heck even closer to home Kelly Blake Moran built them at Laurel Links and Morgan Hill.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   The types of greens you are looking for ARE being built, they just aren't showing up on TV. Some great examples have been given, and to that list add Kingsley Club, Lost Dunes, Angels Crossing, Rustic Canyon, and many others.
    The problem isn't that defenses can't or aren't being built, the issue is that tournament directors are not going to seek out venues like that. Why? The golfers would whine about how unfair the course is, thus they wouldn't play there more than once, if that. No pros = no sponsors = no tournament.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Ed

Spot on.

Thanks for adding those examples.

Doesn't Mirasol have a set of wild Pinehurst #2-like falloff greens built by Fazio's group?  I believe the Honda CLassic was held ther for a couple of years and the pros did not like shots hitting 15 feet from the pin (but on the incorrect side of the pin)  and winding up 20 yards off the green and down an slope.  The Honda Classic will never again be held at Mirasol.

[Dean Paolucci]

Pat - IMHO are we are looking at a problem that is designed to increase difficulty for 150 - 200 players in the world.  Should we care if they shoot 59 every time?  It makes for great television.  The rest of us mere mortals are confounded by the game on a regular basis.  Personally, I prefer hard, fast, and undulating greens for hobbyists because I look at it as a competitive advantage.  It is an equalizer for the many who do not hit the ball into weightless space and re-enter the ball on the green from 300+ yards.  Everyone can improve their ability to read greens, adjust to different speeds, and raise the level of consistency through practice.  Some players even with new technology have physical limits.  I would love to see more thoughtful green sites with contours and mounding being built but we may have to relegate ourselves to the Classic courses with those features.  

[Gary Daughters]

I have seen/played the boring greens that Pat Mucci laments.  We've heard that the culprit is the demand of the modern golfer for greens that stimp at 10+ (thanks again, PGA Tour) and the maintenance issues that produces.  True, during a southern drought I have seen countoured greens begin to deteriorate at the peaks of slopes and then die out altogether.  

Still, there would seem to be some acceptable mid-range between some of the flat/tilted greens that are being built and the extremely countered variety that are difficult to maintain.

Maybe something like this:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l137/garydaughters/DSC_0457.jpg

or this:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l137/garydaughters/DSC_0411-1.jpg

hope the links work.  this is the first time i've tried this.

[paul cowley]

...just lower the par for elite players.....just lower the par for elite players......just lower the par for elite players....


And leave the rest alone to develope and evolve at its own pace.........the big boys won't mind playing par 68's..... they are already.

[Adam Clayman]

Paul Is correct. What is par anyway?  The elasticity of it's definition changes with the wind.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Patrick,
Wethered & Simpson preached about it in Attack & Defence in The Architectural Side of Golf.

I think they and you are right.

Just recently, I was having an email conversation with a certain architect, and he more or less explained to me he didn't believe in it and gave me an example where he hated it. Now I haven't seen any of this particular persons courses, but have played one of his remodels and if that is his thinking, it's probably what is going to keep him from being a GREAT architect.

[Jim_Kennedy]

If, as shown by some of the posted examples, there are courses being built with highly sloped/contoured greens, we don't see them often enough on Tour.

We have some here and they have more of an impact on the better players. You have a better chance chipping close than trying to find the right spot from yardage.

[Ryan Heiman]

I am not sure there is defense against golfers that can stick to within a couple of feet.  If you hit the middle of the fairway and then stick it close to the pin the game is easy, no matter what the course is.  This is what many pros do.  For the rest of us that only happens once and while.  So we(non pos) are punished by "hilly" greens.  

Best defense of score are two options.  Change score for par or make the course rock hard everywhere with many unfair bounces in fairways and greens with tall rough.  If you miss a hole by a cm putting and it goes off the green then scoring will go up.  But if you have ever played a course like that you feel beat up by the end of the round, but your score sucks.

Let the pros tear up the courses, they are that good.  The best golfer will win each week.

[ed_getka]

Geoffrey,
   Mirasol is a perfect example, and was virtually the only regular golf tournament I watched due to the greensites.

Gary,
   Thanks for the pix, where is that?

Paul,
   With each passing year the lowering of par seems to make more sense, assuming there is a reason to protect par. I don't mind seeing the pro's go low, but at least make them earn it on some decent greens. The only other problem with lowering par, as opposed to curbing technology, is that eventually you are going to have a lot of driveable par 4's.

[Jim Thompson]

Somewhat ironically, we just hosted a state association governed tournament and the first thing the setup crew tried to do in the setup was to find the most characterless and unchallenging areas of our greens, thereby eliminating almost all strategic values off the tee or the type approach shot to be played.  I knew they would try it so, for the most part, I just painted the pin locations myself and gave them the sheet. Then the pin sheet they gave the players was almost useless without a range finder and they slipped that into “the ok to use” column for the event.  I was more than a little ticked.  Another silly act is that they would NOT allow those players without range finders to use the pin sheet they we provide to our daily fee players.  To make the approach even worse in my mind was that the setup was for a match play event whose field was to be comprised of the best players in the entire state.  They also, initially tried to make all of my short par fours LONGER to eliminate any risk/reward and decision making options.  I moved the tees too.

Cheers!

JT

[Brad Klein]

Last week visited Prairie Dunes, Wild Horse, Sand Hills, Ballyneal and The Territory (Ok.). All have significant greens contours, all defend par, and all are perfectly fair and playable, and certainly not easy. So, that's four Modern courses that fit the bill, two of them built and opened in the last two years. Sebonack, Boston GC also come immediately to mind. One of them even held a major -- Prairie Dunes -- and par came out looking like a fine score there. The other courses, all recent, will never hold a major golf championship, but could withstand the onslaught if they did. Incidentally, all but Boston GC are windy sites.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

I agree that many modern greens are too flat for a variety of reasons.  First among them is that Tiger and company aren't showing up anytime soon at the new muni, and speed of play, reduced scalping when mowing with tri-plexes and other factors dictate contours rather than pure challenge.  But, you know that.

Ryan,

You can defend if you put severe, ball kicking contours a few feet from the pin, the kind that kick good shots fifty feet away and sometimes off the green.  

While I don't believe you would have to be perfectly fair on every shot (others disagree!) generally you should reward good shots or what's the point?  Never being rewarded for a good shot just because a guy named Tiger is hitting a dozen great shots in a row half a world away is a real disconnect for me.
 
The problem philosophically with random and very rolling green contours is that they randomly reject shots seemingly far more than they assist them or are neutral.  For most of us, being 20 feet from the flag and facing a gently rolling putt is enough penalty over someone who is 5 feet from the flag, no?  Your chances of making the putt are exponentially less, and the penalty is proportional.

You might have some of those ball kicker separation features on each green, in varying locations to variously impact strategy, and avoiding defending too many pins for everyday play with a valley, ridge, or tier.  If a green has severe contour everywhere, there can't be any real strategy, just as Medinah's claustrophic fw corridors eliminate any real tee shot strategy.  Thus, extreme rolls beyond anyone's ability to read or conquer might make a course tougher, but does it make it greater?

I hear far too many good players say that wide fw and defending par at the green via contours (hazards don't matter when a good player is "on") makes a course far too easy for the good player.  It also makes it imbalanced as a test, favoring long drivers and excellent putters, a la Augusta used to.  A few narrow fairways, a few small greens, a variety of hazards mixed in makes for a far better golf course than wild greens, although those who have played my courses can testify I am not against those in spots either.

[George Pazin]

It seems as though Patrick is referencing the courses that host pro events in his generalization.

And I think his point is very valid, as they often provide the standard by which other courses are judged. Not necessarily the courses many on here cherish, and not necessarily the standard many on here hold, yet it is rather undeniable that the pro courses on TV influence expectations and standards, so it would be nice to see some of these courses adopt the bold contours (and accompanying maintenance meld) which help to defend against the skill set of the pros.

I'm about the furthest thing from a pro, but I don't find that bold contours make a course too difficult (and hence less enjoyable) for me. I find that they make things A LOT more interesting and fun.

Then again, look at what happens when a course like Mirasol hosts an event - the pros complain and they end up switching to another course.

I think in a silly way, almost every golfer is looking for a course that is too hard for everyone just under his skill level. That way he can really show off his "superior" skills, without really being pushed too hard himself. But God forbid that course actually be difficult for him (think Shinnecock) - then he joins the chorus of those crying "unfair!"

[Brian Joines]

I was watching the coverage today and one the announcers said that many pros have told him that these are the best greens they have played all year. That suprised me quite a bit. Where's their architectural eye?

[ed_getka]

Brian,
   To a pro best greens, mean most perfect surface. They would be extremely happy to putt on a billiards table. There is no need for an architectural eye for most courses that these guys play. An exception would be the Open that Tiger showed how to play by paying attention to what the course was giving him. The amazing thing was I didn't see any of the dimwits changing their strategy when Tiger's strategy was clearly superior. Of course they would have had to hit the shots Tiger did to keep up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

What greens at Sebonack have pronounced internal contouring ?

Wild Horse ?

Other than # 2 at Sand Hills, what greens have pronounced internal contouring ?

Don't confuse slope with pronounced internal contouring.
I'm talking about ridges, tiers, plateaus, mounds and the like.

I wouldn't classify Prairie Dunes as a modern golf course.

Where are Maxwell's potato chip greens from today's designers ?

Wayne Morrisson,

Did CBM, SR and CB create great greens with pronounced contours with and without the tie-ins you reference ?

Dean Paolucci,

I wouldn't consider Montclair, Essex County, The Knoll, Hollywood, Somerset Hills and Mountain Ridge as tour courses.
Yet, the pronounced internal contouring is exceptional, and members and guests enjoy playing those golf courses day in and day out.

Paul Cowley & Adam Clayman,

You don't get it.

Flat greens present no challenge when putting, approaching or recovering.

A simple feature like a one foot ridge running through the green from 3 to 9, 6 to 12 or any other alignment, or a simple X shaped one foot contour in a green would exponentially improve the fun and the challenge in playing to and on the green.  

Ryan Heiman,

When they have to hit it to the appropriate side of the ridge or putt over it, it will create plenty of havoc, with very little in the way of expense in construction and maintainance.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

Agree that flat greens reduce challenge on several levels.

Agree on construction not costing any more

Not sure about maintenance.  My experience is that very pronounced contours dry out quickly, and may be hard to mow correctly, causing scalping, and often force traffic patterns around them, causing wear next to them, etc.

Either requires hand work - watering or special mowing (going with the contour no matter what direction the green is mowed) Sometimes similar ridges will do fine in one wind orientation but not into prevailing summer winds. Go a few years, get a cold winter, and slopes facing the prevailing winter winds might dessicate.

For courses that have high play and low staffs/budgets, they may be viewed as "not worth the hassle."  Even at so called better courses, like the fw bunker thread, too many golfers curse anything that causes them pain (Like walking) or their scorecard pain (like too much challenge)  and also hate any feature that takes away from their greeness, which high spots on greens can do.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

I don't think that a one foot high ridge running through a green would present an extraordinary maintainance problem or costs.

The features I'm referencing add so much to the enjoyment and challenge of the game, on the approach, recovery and with putting.

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