[JohnV]

Tom,

Lift, clean and cheat is recognized in the rules now.  See Appendix I-4b on page 93 of the Rules of Golf and the specimen rule on page 99.

The USGA and R&A felt that since the tours use it so much, they would codify the wording and make sure that everyone was at least doing it in a way that was kosher.

[rjsimper]

From one of my favorite courses in the world, Taconic.

[TEPaul]

"The USGA and R&A felt that since the tours use it so much, they would codify the wording and make sure that everyone was at least doing it in a way that was kosher."

John:

In my opinion, this entire subject is a huge one, and probably not one to get into in detail here.

What I mean by that is it can be a bit confusing sometimes figuring out where a committee's authority begins or ends to use "local" or "specimen" rules or particularly "Conditions" of competition, particularly if they are not referenced in Appendix 1. The dividing line in the Rules proper is none can be used if they waive a Rule of Golf but I think it's far more complicated than that.

I'm sure you know that over time procedures (particularly relief procedures) first enter golf and The Rules through Appendix 1 (Local Rules, Specimen Rules and Conditiions of Competition).

One really wonders why some "Local" Rules and "Conditions" get into Appendix 1 and some don't. In my opinion, Appendix 1 for many years has been sort of a semi-official and fairly confusing nether-world conduit of Rules of Golf relaxation. Why has this happened? In my opinion, it's just one of the many dimensions of the over-arching fixation on "fairness". "Luck" was once upon a time considered to be an essential ingredient of golf but it's been on the defensive against the fixation on fairness for years.

[jeffwarne]

The Ryder Cup is a joke-on multiple fronts

JJ's incident occurred on the 17th,which he did birdie,not the 18th-which he did not birdie
knowing the rules and using them to your advantage is well within your rights
However,what JJ did on 17 was wrong
Using the lift clean and cheat rule(a rediculous local rule) to gain a clublength from an obstacle not interfering with him initially was well,just wrong
I do give him kudos for delaying the whole process long enough for the downpour to subside.

Lift clean and place in Ireland? Shocker,it was raining in Ireland.

Do you think Jim Furyk can add anything to Tiger's game?Cameraderie is waaaay overrated-hire 12 private jets, show up on Wednesday, have no Captain (with all due respect to Lehman who is a great man-but like alll other Captains has no business telling great individuals in an individual game what to do or how to prepare)
and while you're at it lose the "veterans" whose "experience" consists of losing

[JESII]

Jezz, was that really 17? Sorry for the mislead.

two things; I still think Casey's shot into 18 was the shot of the match, and I don't think JJ Henry is a cheat because he made every move with the help of a rules official. Sad stuff.

[rjsimper]

Jezz, was that really 17? Sorry for the mislead.

two things; I still think Casey's shot into 18 was the shot of the match, and I don't think JJ Henry is a cheat because he made every move with the help of a rules official. Sad stuff.

Well one point to clarify here - the rules official did NOT help him do this.

Kudos to the cameraman for getting this GREAT shot, but the exchange basically happened like this:

JJ: Hey Doug, Can I get a drop from this

Rules Official: I'm sorry Shooter, the rule says Play the ball as it lies

JJ (With Lehman looking on) Damn...

::pontificate::

JJ to Tom - "What if I, with LCP, place it on top of the sprinkler"

Lehman - "Yeah, I think you can do that"

JJ to Rules Official "Can I place it on the sprinkler, then take relief?"

Rules Official "Yes you can do that"

Lehman "Great - JJ do that"

JJ proceeds as documented.



So, the rules official didn't help him...he merely provided the correct answers to JJ and Tom's questions when asked.

[David Stamm]

Hey Ryan, where is that photo from?

[A.G._Crockett]

Henry's subconscious had to be screaming at him that he was a cheating SOB.  Not sure how he played his second shot as I did not see any of this action but he obviously did not make birdie.

Conversley, Casey apparently hits a marvelous second shot.  His subconscious is screaming, "while this pri*ck is cheating, I'm gonna float a big high fade and waft it down onto the green and beat these bastards - PLAYING CLEANLY !!!"  

Good on him!

Henry's second shot was on the green, but much farther from the hole than Casey's.  His first putt was mediocre, and he ended up 6-8 ft. away; lipped out for birdie, which Casey made easily, halving the match.

I agree with the assessment that this was very bad karma for Henry and the captain.  There is an equity issue here; the whole concept of first placing a ball on the sprinkler head, then taking a club length from it is just wrong.  It's disappointing that neither one of them could slow down long enough to realize that.

[rjsimper]

Hey Ryan, where is that photo from?

Taconic Golf Club - Williamstown, MA  (Stiles/Van Kleek)
Home course of Williams College
Host of many a tournament participated in by (and an occasional one won by) the Middlebury Panthers

[Phil McDade]

I watched the JJ Henry ruling on TV, and Ryan essentially has it correct (it was on the par 5 18th, after Henry had made two brilliant plays on the 16th and 17th for eagle/birdie). It appeared to me that Henry first asked if he could get relief on his stance -- the yardage marker/sprinkler head cover would've been between his ball (where it ended up) and his stance, and Henry would've had an awkward stance, with the ball below his feet. The official denied him relief on stance (appropriately, I thought), but it seemed to me the official made some kind of comment to the effect of: you can't get relief on stance IF you play your ball where it lies. It was then that Henry consulted with Lehman, asked about the lift/clean rule, and asked the official if he could place his ball on the edge of the marker (the ball was very close to the marker, within the 6 inches of the lift/clean regulation), and then get relief on his ball. The official said, yes, he could. Henry then moved his ball within a club length of the marker, which -- from where it looked on TV -- gave him a much more level stance.

Not commenting on the spirit of his observance of the rule, but it was pretty clear -- the whole thing took about 5 minutes -- that Henry was looking to gain as much of an advantage with his stance and/or lie as he could. His team was up by one on the 18th (in the last match of the day), Cink was faced with an indifferent approach to the green sitting 3, Casey had hit his drive further, had a good lie, and clearly was going to go for the green in 2; Henry certainly knew he had to go for the green with his 2nd shot.

As it was -- the ruling aside -- it was one of the real pivotal points in the Ryder Cup. Henry hit a very good shot; Casey hit a truly magnificant shot. US might have had some momentum if Henry/Cink had won 1 up; instead, Euro got the halve. Probably didn't matter in the end, as dominant as Euro was, but it was a pretty major turning point.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Interesting how golf really is a gentleman's game.

In any other sports, athletes are taught and revered for how they bend (and break) the rules:  Soccer players faking injury;  Hockey goalies faking equipment problem to give their players a rest;  Baseball catchers moving their body to make a ball look like a strike...  Learning how to "get away with it", and successfully doing so, is seen in a positive light.

Compare this to golf, where a player questionably uses the rules to his advantage, and this is frowned upon.

Not saying if this is good or bad... Just interesting.

[jeffwarne]

Phil
it happened on 17
It was pouring when the others hit and by the time Henry hit the rain had lightened considerably.
Henry then stiffed it

[Ted Kramer]

I was not happy with what he did.
I think that his actions violated the spirit of the game.

-Ted

[TEPaul]

I really hate to see JJ Henry lambasted and almost called a cheat on this website because he simply took advantage of what the Rules (and a Local Rule) allowed him to do. If you have a problem with this kind of procedure then blame it not on a golfer like JJ Henry, blame it on the Rules of Golf and particularly a local Rule known as Appendix 1, Part A, 4b (Temporary Conditions-Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course)---eg lift, clean and place.

Furthermore, perhaps some of you don't realize that these relief procedures involving separate situations can be performed individually and separately from one another. In other words, you take relief properly from the first situation and if that happens to leave you in another situation from which relief is granted under a whole different situation you then deal with that separate situation and its relief procedure next. If a golfer happens to forsee what proceeding individually under both procedures separately may do for him ultimately then that's his own good sense and good right under the Rules of Golf.

Blaming a player like JJ Henry and lambasting him practically as a cheat for availing himself of what the Rules in a particular competition allow him to do is preposterous.

Blame the Rules (such as the adoption of the Local Rule for lift, clean and place in this competition) for allowing this type of relief procedure if you will but not Henry for taking advantage of what the Rules in a particular competition allow him to do.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Don't know what the TV showed, but on Sunday a good number of the players were finding 'casual water' on the fairways on the early holes, even if it wasn't apparent from behind the ropes. 3rd shot of the day featured Toms moving his ball some 15' to the right where the higher (and drier ) ground also offered a marginally flatter lie.  Each player marked and cleaned, droped and then marked and cleaned again.

[TEPaul]

It is probably not worth even commenting on the procedures these players were using to lift, clean and place unless you read what the procedure for it was on the Conditons of Competition sheet. Did anyone on here actually read that Condition of Competition procedure?  

[Scott Coan]

I really hate to see JJ Henry lambasted and almost called a cheat on this website because he simply took advantage of what the Rules (and a Local Rule) allowed him to do. If you have a problem with this kind of procedure then blame it not on a golfer like JJ Henry, blame it on the Rules of Golf and particularly a local Rule known as Appendix 1, Part A, 4b (Temporary Conditions-Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course)---eg lift, clean and place.

Blaming a player like JJ Henry and lambasting him practically as a cheat for availing himself of what the Rules in a particular competition allow him to do is preposterous.

Blame the Rules (such as the adoption of the Local Rule for lift, clean and place in this competition) for allowing this type of relief procedure if you will but not Henry for taking advantage of what the Rules in a particular competition allow him to do.

There are Rules and then there are Ethics (or acting within the 'Spirit of the Game').  What JJ did was certainly within the Rules.  I like to refer to Ethics as "adherance to the unenforcable".

JJ had a choice to play his ball as it lies after going through with the lift, clean, and place procedure.  He then chose to craftily obtain further advantage by placing his ball on/next to the sprinkler head.  It was his choice.

He could have taken another path - he could have chose to adhere to the unenforceable 'Spirit of the Game' and take his uncomfortable stance and fire away.  After all, he had hit the ball exactly where it lay.  Furthermore, he had just eagled/birdied the previous two holes without having to resort to any silliness.  They had just turned a 1-down deficit into a 1-up advantage.  He had to be feeling pumped.  Hit the bloody ball and make birdie!

I am sure that's what Paul Casey was thinking about at the time.  And that's just what he proceeded to do.

Karma came back to bite them in the behind and I am glad it did.

BTW, I thought JJ Henry was one of the few shining lights on the US team.  It's a pity he resorted to the aforementioned shenanigans.  

[Jim Sweeney]

The use of preferred lies made the Ryder Cup into a joke. The participating PGAs should be ashamed, and the players embarrassed. This competition says more about the declining state of the game than any National Giolf Foundation statistic could. I encourage all of you who love the game to send a letter of protest to the PGA of America. This was a travesty.

[Michael Moore]

Blaming a player like JJ Henry and lambasting him practically as a cheat for availing himself of what the Rules in a particular competition allow him to do is preposterous.

Amen, Brother Paul.

[JohnV]

Jim Sweeney, I agree.  I was shocked to hear that they were doing that.  I can't believe the PGA of America would ever play the PGA Championship under Lift, Clean and Place rules.  That they would do this says to me, that they consider this an exhibition as opposed to a really important event.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Blaming a player like JJ Henry and lambasting him practically as a cheat for availing himself of what the Rules in a particular competition allow him to do is preposterous.

Amen, Brother Paul.

I second that Amen.

Break the rules and you're a cheat. The rules jump up and bite you when you didn't intend to break them - dislodging a bit of moss in a bunker on your backswing, for example.. When you can gain advantage by adhering with the rules, well, frankly you might as well, unless you feel bad about it, and that is a personal decision. And those who are casting these stones, maybe you should think about how you drop the ball next time you have a free drop.. is that lie better than the one you had?? did you gain an advantage by your choice of where to legally drop?

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't think anyone considers JJ Henry to be anything like a cheat.  

I DO think that it is a valid and very stark contrast to what Love and Clark have done in the past to place a ball on a sprinkler head, which nobody could possibly claim as the intent of a rule, so that you could gain a more level stance.  

Clearly within the letter of the rules, clearly outside the intent.  Not cheating, not even close, but way bad karma.

[Glenn Spencer]

If JJ Henry had ever received a penalty for the wind moving his ball while he is addressing it on the green, then I don't blame him one bit. There are so many negative rules in golf against the player, I could imagine him taking some delight in 'getting around' one. I wouldn't have done it or thought of it, but with my Captain suggesting it and the Official agreeing, I can see going along with it.

[Mike Hendren]

Karma?

The law of Karma teaches that responsibility for unskillful actions is born by the person who commits them. I saw nothing unskillfull about Henry's drop.  I watched the whole thing and my first thought was:  "The holier-than-thou purists on GCA will have a field day with this."

Who among us would not do the same if tied for the lead in the club championship on the penultimate hole?  (I must give Shivas an exemption here as I witnessed first hand at KPII his attempt of an impossible pitch from the back fringe of the 8th green at Pasatiempo when putter was the obvious play but for the pitch-mark his approach left in the fringe directly on line with the hole - actions speak louder than words.)

Henry showed some smarts and calm under pressure.  Well done.

Mike

[TEPaul]

"The use of preferred lies made the Ryder Cup into a joke. The participating PGAs should be ashamed, and the players embarrassed. This competition says more about the declining state of the game than any National Giolf Foundation statistic could. I encourage all of you who love the game to send a letter of protest to the PGA of America. This was a travesty."

Jim Sweeney:

I couldn't agree with you more. The travesty was the adoption of that Local Rule not that JJ Henry availed himself of it once it was adopted for that competition or even in how he availed himself of it which was well within the procedure for lift, clean and place in that competition.

JohnV:

Here is something that may be even more bizarre or doubly complicating. I don't really have an opinion on it but perhaps you do.

We all know that players cannot agree to waive a Rule of Golf (Rule 1-3). What do you suppose would happen to JJ Henry and Paul Casey if they stood on the first tee and proclaimed in front of a referee or Committee Rules official that in their opinion they felt the adoption of the Local Rule for lift, clean and place (App. 1, Part B, 4b) by the Cup Committee was BS and they were agreeing not to use it?

Do you think that would legitimately put them in a position to be DQed even though this was a Local Rule adopted by the Committee for the competition?

What Davis Love 3rd did in his match with Clarke in the last Ryder Cup was to simply not avail himself of relief from an obstruction which it was clear would've been awarded to him by Rules officials on hand. What Love did, in essence, was just stick with a club he felt he would've used if that obstruction had not been there and with which he was not able to establish interference with the obstruction. There was certainly no agreement with Clarke about this even though Clarke could obviously see what was happening.

But the ultimate result of that entire situation with Love and Clarke was the thing that was ultimately really cool and which perhaps noone really knows the truth about. In other words, did Clarke miss that short putt on purpose as a kind of sportsman like gesture to Love in return for what Love had just done out on the approach?

I was so impressed by the entire thing I actually wrote Love a letter telling him so. Secretly I was hoping he'd write back telling me how the whole thing played out on the green with Clarke. But of course he didn't do that which on reflection is even cooler, I guess. He wouldn't go into that part and maybe he and Clarke never really said anything to anyone about whether Clarke did what he did on purpose. Love just wrote me short note saying: "Thank you for the note of support! Little things like that add up to making golf such a great game. Keep the "Spirit"!"

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