[John_Conley]

I played in Minneapolis today and absolutely love the grasses.  While some new strains of Bermuda are wonderful to putt, the turf options in Florida just aren't as good as the staple grasses in the Midwest.

Mark me down for a "bent and bluegrass beats bermuda" vote.

Seldom do I get much roll in Orlando unless it is a dry winter and a newer course.  In time it usually winds up being a soft landing for teeshots.

[Matt_Ward]

John Conley:

Thanks for your candid comments and reply. Since I have no "credence" on the subject -- you must be in the same boat as I.

Mr. Ackerly:

If what I say has no "credence" in your book then don't waste the time with your retorts.

Allow me to clue you in for what it's worth -- I went to school in the Carolinas and played more than my fair share of the top and mid-level courses in the region -- and that includes the Comonwealth of Virginia. I also understand the nature of the turf I've played off of and what it means when playing.

One other think -- I answered your question previously -- you must have difficulty with the English response I provided.

A.G. Crockett:

I mentioned the fact that overapplying H20 -- whether it be on bermuda-based turf or bent fairways doesn't make things better. Two wrongs don't make a right -- got it.

By the way -- yes -- it was akin to playing on mud.

You make it sound that just because of your own experience at your own club that everything else is just as good. That's a crock and frankly I would think given your level of intelligence you would understand that other possibilities do in fact exist.

The old strains of Bermuda if not handled in a very precise manner and when H20 is overly applied to create the situations I mentioned. I don't give passes to courses no matter where they are located -- Jersey or anywhere else for that matter -- your best bet is to drop the regional retort because it doesn't have legs or fly in my book.

[A.G._Crockett]

Matt,
Are you still claiming to have played on bermuda greens in Virginia?  If so, could you tell us where?  

For that matter, I know of only a very few courses in North Carolina with bermuda greens, and they're all at the coast on the very south end of the state.

As to the regional stuff, that's your specialty.  You hate the South, and golf in the South especially.  You've made that abundantly clear, over and over and over and over and over...  That is certainly your perogative; maybe you shouldn't come down anymore.  They must have treated you poorly at USC...

Yawn....
 

[Matt_Ward]

A.G.:

I don't hate the South -- and frankly that's a gross generalization and insult on your part. I know of a number of worthy courses to play. I enjoy the people with lasting college friends, the varied locales and even a number of courses in the region. However, that number is limited because of the turf aspect I mentioned and also because the architecture is indeed less than compelling -- save for the few worth noting.

You made a statement about the turf preparation at your home course and then you broadened those specific conditions to state that my sense of things is completely misplaced from the varied places I have played on this latest trip. Geeze, nothing like taking your specific lone instance and presuming what's there specifically applies generally across the board throughout an entire region.

But then again -- I "hate the South" so it's easy to swing the broad brush at me.

P.S. Thanks for the swipe at Jersey -- I said this before -- you must have missed my reply -- I don't give passes to places that overdose with H20. Simple as that since two wrongs don't make a right.

[ChasLawler]

Matt,
I personally find your comments unsubstantiated, ignorant and marginally offensive. Perhaps if you enlightened us as to what courses you are referring to, we might be able to have a reasonable debate on the matter, but unfortunately you have chosen to hide behind the speculation of a future article for the "Jersey Golfer", of which maybe a handful of the viewers on this forum subscribe to or even read.

I suppose that’s all I can say, but I’m still chuckling over the fact that Matt Ward can’t tell the difference between Bermuda and bent greens.

[ChipRoyce]

Matt;
Your distain for Bermuda cracks me up! Have you ever played Champions Bermuda? Our greens here at Great Hills in Austin roll true, much less grain. In the summer, even when we have to syringe due to the extreme heat, you most likely still don't even see a ball mark.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Matt,
  I'm not sure if this comes as any bit of defense, but I had a discussion about bentgrass greens with my boss today and what it would take to get them here at Long Cove, cause lets be honest, other than June, July and August, NOTHING is better than bentgrass. We overseed here, so were really only on a bermudagrass green 4 months out of the year anyway.  Bentgrass will be sticky in those 3 months, but either grass will be alot of work considering all the verticutting, aerifing topdressing and other grain reducers along with FAIRY Ring that the new ultradwarfs produce, expecially Tifeagle and Champion. (There is NO "S")

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

I hear what you are saying but remember what I said at the outset. No doubt there are courses located on the dividing line between temperature points -- places like Tennessee, Kentucky, Virginia, etc, etc.

I also said very clearly that certain courses are able to better maintain their playing surfaces for the duration of their regular playing season. Credit internal staff and quite likely the benefit of some extra $$$.

I don't doubt the obstacles and issues you mentioned in your post. All I said was that minus the top tier facilities that have the wherewithal to handle such demands the issues one faces with such turf is something I generally like to avoid. That's just a personal preference on my part.

ChipRoyce:

Glad I can amuse you. I never said all facilities and I did make it a point to identify a particular area of the country. Maybe your memory is faulty -- did I mention I have an issue with Texas ?

The issue isn't about seeing ball marks -- it's about having an aerial and ground game that can work together -- especially in the summer months when common bermuda often plays very slow.

I salute your club for having better conditions than others. Be grateful for it.

John C:

Glad I helped add a bit more to your golf vocabulary.

Mr. Ackerly:

When you talk about "marginally offensive" try looking at the mirror and see where the BS verbal attacks started in the first place.

The place for the article I am preparing is also not the Jersey Golfer so how's about you glue your lips before you slide even further down the path of ignorance. Now I can certainly chuckle at that.

[A.G._Crockett]

Matt,
Two simple, simple questions, with one follow-up:

1. Are you seriously claiming that golfers in New Jersey IN GENERAL are able to play lots of "ground option" shots that golfers in, for instance, Virginia are NOT, IN GENERAL, able to play?  

2. Are you or are you NOT going to tell us what courses you played in Virginia that had bermuda greens?

And the follow-up:
If your answer to question #1 above is "Yes", then could you detail what sort of shots you are talking about?  Bump and run from 20 or 30 yds. off the green?  Putting from 20 or 30 feet off the green? Using a 2 iron off the tee a la Tiger at Hoylake?  Please be as specific as you can be.

Thanks in advance for staying on point and being forthcoming.

[ChasLawler]

Matt – before you get all worked up, keep in mind that you’re comments would be considered offensive to just about every superintendent in the state of Virginia. I won’t disagree that this section of the transition zone is a tough place to grow grass, but I also believe there are a lot of supers in this state who are doing wonderful things with limited resources. It’s not just the clubs with money that are doing good things.

From the text of your first post, it sounds as if you are in Virginia now, or just left.  What region have you been visiting? Are you aware of the amount of rain this state has seen in the last 3 weeks? Since it appears you don’t make it down here often, I certainly hope you’re keeping that in mind when evaluating conditions and making such blanket statements.

You’re entitled to your opinion on Bermuda, and you’re certainly not the only person who’s ever panned it, but quit the condescending bulsh*t. Most of us who are “stuck” with it manage just fine. Like most places, our courses play firmer when it’s dry and slower when it’s rains. Like anywhere else, some places are going to water more than others. We certainly don’t need someone like you to tell us how “bad” we have it.

So what’s the topic of your article…and will you share the same sentiments in it that you have here?

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  I've seen good golfing conditions in Virginia.  One of the best-conditioned courses we've done is Riverfront in Suffolk, which is in a very hot and humid place.  They've just got a great superintendent, Andy Woolston.

Anthony:  Don't mess with those greens at Long Cove.  Please!

[S. Huffstutler]

Matt:
Please tell everyone in Jersey and for that matter, the entire Northeast, how bad it is here and not to come down. Also tell them that the weather in the winter sucks, the women are ugly and the water is cold.

Thanks

Steve

[Steve Lang]

 

FAILURE???      Only by those in charge, not by the nature of the grass..

How about long KY Blue grass in those mid-latitude states in mid-summer.. or up in mich. when rains keep staff from mowing.. hack & whack..

As the saying goes:" It takes a whole lot of folks walking on this good earth to make it go round.."

Same for grasses and golf ..

Hey the weather has finally turned in SE TX, heat index is out of the 100's, some dry air from OK and CO is passing through.. the supers can let the rough come down some to more reasonable heights,  dormant conditions are still months away and life is real good on bermuda..

I suppose there's some "degree-days" metric for each latitude's grassing choices, but can the gca control things after they're done??

[John_Conley]

I don't know about Bermuda grasses in Virginia, but I'm familiar with them in Florida.  I was working near Chaska today so I took a walk around Hazeltine and Deer Run near the clubhouse of each and can't imagine someone preferring Florida turfs (and sand based dirts) to what you find in the Midwest with firmer ground and finer grasses.

There's an argument about this?

Or is the argument over the way Matt presented his case?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,
  No worries! I know you're well aware of the quality of greens that we have here. In fact, I think that bentgrass would make alot of our contouring too extreme and unfair because speeds could get out of control from Sept-April. (12+)

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[paul cowley]

Tony....in your opinion could you get equally high green speeds on bent overseeded bermuda greens versus bent only greens?
If yes, then could you keep the two consistently high? [excluding grow in and transitioning times for the overseeded greens].
Thanks....

[Don_Mahaffey]

Matt,
I'll be honest, I haven't taken the time to read this entire thread so maybe I'm being redundant. But, saying bermuda as a whole is no good is like saying regional golf rags are shitty as a whole. The fact is some are and some aren't and some bermuda courses are cared for with playability in mind and some are prepped to just look good. Well cared for bermuda golfing turf is dull, mottled and unstrippable (new word, look for it in next years Webster's).
If bermuda is managed to look good, then it will not usually play very well if you like fast turf.
Starve it, dry it out, and kick it in the teeth when it starts to get happy and you'll have a fine golf turf. Baby it and you'll get what you’re finding...soft bouncy turf that most supers are required to produce because most players think green stripped turf is "good".

[TaylorA]

I too find the broad brush of bermuda is bad to be a bit over the top.

However, I did find a course in Virginia with bermuda greens.

Providence Golf Course

Edit: Thanks redanman.

[TEPaul]

Perhaps unbelievably I'd like to say I have no opinion at all on Bermuda grass and it's playability. I just don't think I understand it. I've played on it all my life, and I still don't understand it. I know when I play a ball out of Bermuda rough around greens I always played it a lot like a bunker shot and that always worked fine for me.

I also know all my southern golfing buddies told me you have to really understand how to putt Bermuda greens with its grainyness or whatever. Long ago I said screw that, I'm just gonna plumb 'em and putt 'em just like I do northern bent greens and you know what, it looked to me like I putted them a lot better than all those southern boys who complicated the issue so much they seemed always totally confused when putting bermuda greens.

I recognize that the south appears to be saddled with bermuda grass because it's just too damn hot down yonder to grow bent grass which is pretty perfect.

I also think the fact that bent appears agronomically reserved for most places other than the Old South makes me wonder about things like poetic justice.

In other words, has God and The Fates saddled the Old South and all my southern golfing buddies with a problematic golf grass just to drive them eternally crazy? And if so, why is that?

I figure it must have something to do with the fact all my Southern buddies' forebears treated our black brothers like shit once upon a time and this is God's way of taking revenge on all our Southern golfing brethern. Either that or this is Fate's way of telling all our Southern golfing Brethen that they shouldn't have started that God-damned Civil War. They started it, they lost it, and this is Fate's way of making them pay for it eternally---eg forcing them to play golf on bermuda grass.

But look, all of you Southern golfing buddies of mine, you all have an open invitation to come up here into the North which is the golfing Garden of Eden anyway and play on all our bent grass courses.

I must finally say I genuinely feel sorry for all my Southern golfing buddies who are saddled with bermuda grass.

I of course make an exception for Bob Crosby because the guy went to Harvard and for that reason alone he was naturally imbued with a type of intelligence that makes him take these things in stride and not be driven eternally crazy by Bermuda grass.

I also make an exception for my Southern buddy Paul Cowley because although he thinks he's southern he actually comes from New York state and gets some kind of a pass on this frightful vengence layed on all my Southern golfing buddies by bermuda grass.

Paul, however, is a Civil War reenactor and if he is having trouble playing and putting bermuda grass down there what I would suggest he do is just switch to reenacting for the Union Army and not those cockamanny Confederate Army rebels who he should know lost the God-damn Civil War they started about 150 years ago.

For Christ's Sake, fight for the right side Paul---the Northern Union side, the side of right, justice and nobility and you'll chip better down there on Bernuda, you'll putt better down there on Bermuda and you'll score better down there on Bermuda and have more fun on Bermuda, like I do.

Now, as far as Matt Ward is concerned, I'd say he must have some southern heritage in him because God and the Fates are torturing him for some reason with Bermuda grass just like God and The Fates are torturing all my southern golfing buddies with Bermuda grass for treating our Black Brothers like shit 150 years ago and yonder or for starting the God-damned Civil War on us Northern clean living and clear thinking folk and then having the bad form to lose that War and get subjected to the vengence of God and The Fates by Bermuda grass.

[A.G._Crockett]

Matt:
Please tell everyone in Jersey and for that matter, the entire Northeast, how bad it is here and not to come down. Also tell them that the weather in the winter sucks, the women are ugly and the water is cold.

Thanks

Steve

Amen, Brother Huffstutler.

We should have never air-conditioned the place, and we'd still be left alone.

[TEPaul]

"We should have never air-conditioned the place, and we'd still be left alone."

Ah, Bullticky!

You can air condition the entire Old South. You can give us Northern cats all your women every night. You can tell us how sorry you are you started the God-Damned Civil War until you're green in the face (that sickly Bermuda green, BTW). You can apologize to our Black Brethern until all the hippos come home---it doesn't matter cuz there's not a damn thing anyone can do about the fact that God and The Fates saddled all you southern shmoos with Bermuda grass for the rest of time for these transgressions.

The fact is, we up here in the Old Union, have the bent grass, and you never will.  
 
 

[A.G._Crockett]

"We should have never air-conditioned the place, and we'd still be left alone."

Ah, Bullticky!

You can air condition the entire Old South. You can give us Northern cats all your women every night. You can tell us how sorry you are you started the God-Damned Civil War until you're green in the face (that sickly Bermuda green, BTW). You can apologize to our Black Brethern until all the hippos come home---it doesn't matter cuz there's not a damn thing anyone can do about the fact that God and The Fates saddled all you southern shmoos with Bermuda grass for the rest of time for these transgressions.

The fact is, we up here in the Old Union, have the bent grass, and you never will.  
 
 

Actually, Tom, South Carolina fired on Fort Sumter, which was in the Charleston harbor to begin The War Between the States, a.k.a. The War of Northern Aggression.  The term "civil war" refers to a struggle for control of an existing government or state, and the South didn't attempt that.  According to the history books, the South was invaded by the forces of the North.

However, by "left alone", I simply meant in modern times by people like Matt who come down here to get a proper education and a decent vacation and then go home and trash the place in print.  Hell, we never wanted him here anyway!

For the record, my lawn here in Georgia is fescue and bluegrass, with not a speck of bermuda to be found.  Come on down; we'll sit on the porch and watch the world go by and the leaves change with a cold drink.

[John_Cullum]

I figure it must have something to do with the fact all my Southern buddies' forebears treated our black brothers like shit once upon a time and this is God's way of taking revenge on all our Southern golfing brethern. Either that or this is Fate's way of telling all our Southern golfing Brethen that they shouldn't have started that God-damned Civil War. They started it, they lost it, and this is Fate's way of making them pay for it eternally---eg forcing them to play golf on bermuda grass.

Yes Tom it is quite difficult dealing with the guilt and shame of our forbears for the way they treated your black brethren, because we know conditions for them up north were always, and remain to be, so perfect. We recognize they are all welcome in your clubs (so long as they are wearing their white aprons) and courses (so long as they have a rake in their hands).

The fact is you Yankee bastards owe all of us southern boys a damned big debt of gratitude for shouldering all of the blame for all these years. But ya'll won the war, so I guess you get to make the rules.

The only justice is we got to keep all of the good lookin' women.

[Mike Hendren]

Mark Stovall, the outstanding superintendent at Lookout Mountain sent me an e-mail this morning where he is shown bouncing a golf ball off the bermuda fairway of the 1st hole.  You can hear the ball hit.

I'll be happy to forward the video file to anyone willing to post it.  It's an mpg file and I'm not tech savy.  A little help, please.

Mike

[A.G._Crockett]

Mark Stovall, the outstanding superintendent at Lookout Mountain sent me an e-mail this morning where he is shown bouncing a golf ball off the bermuda fairway of the 1st hole.  You can hear the ball hit.

I'll be happy to forward the video file to anyone willing to post it.  It's an mpg file and I'm not tech savy.  A little help, please.

Mike

Even if I knew how to post an mpg file, there would be no point.  Matt Ward has already said that what you claim the video shows is impossible!  So, clearly, there is some camera trick involved!

Note also that Matt has not yet listed the Virginia courses with bermuda greens.  I would imagine that he is googling like crazy right now...

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