Have your tastes changed over time?

[cary lichtenstein]

Interesting observation: My wife said to me during our round today at the Greenbrier that she did not like the course nearly as well as 10 years ago when we were here for the first time and she liked the Old White much better (which we did not play last time).

I happened to agree with her 100%.

So I was wondering if others in the treehouse have noticed a change in their tastes either as a result of playing more, or as a result of this website or a combination of the 2??

[Brian Joines]

My tastes have changed alot due mainly to this website and my ability to play a wider range of shots.

I used to think that the more water hazards a course had, the more exciting it was. After a trip to Pinehurst No.2 I saw a great and challenging course could be one with virtually no water or O/B hazards. This course really opened my eyes to golf course architecture and what really makes a course great.

The 3 years I have spent mostly reading and learning from this website have also changes my taste for golf courses. I learned how to really evaluate a course and all of the options it offers me. It changed not only my apreciation for architecture but the way I play the game as well.

[ed_getka]

I wouldn't say my tastes have changed over time, but they have expanded. A golf course I enjoyed in the past always started with interesting, well-maintained greens, and that hasn't changed. I am just more aware of other things going on in the course of the round architecturally. This is an ongoing process and one of the fun parts of being involved with GCA is breaking down what attributes of a course lead me to like it so much.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

If anything, I thnk my tastes have been reinforced.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom MacWood,
 With all your insight into the arts and crafts...  I'm just shocked you feel the need to denegrate Jim's work. His devotion to his interpretation of the art deserves a little more respect than snide comments. Don't you think? Maybe all the artist you've met are cold bitches?  IMO, your post was insensitive to all artists in any medium.

[John_Conley]

Not really.

[ed_getka]

Adam,
   Why must Tom like Engh's work? Not every architect is going to be everyone's cup of tea. "...insensitive to all artists in any medium." That seems a bit of a stretch. Any artist who would take offense at Tom's comment should probably be looking for a desk job. I look forward to seeing Jim's work some day to judge for myself, but it seems pretty clear from the pix that he is a little over the top with some of his creations, and not everybody is going to like that.
    I enjoyed reading your comments about the Ballyneal opening. It sounds like the course is exceeding the lofty expectations that you guys had going in.

[Eric Franzen]

I wouldn't say my tastes have changed over time, but they have expanded.

Expanded is a really good way to describe it. The more I read, learn and experience really open my eyes to interesting features that may have passed me by on earlier rounds.

[Adam Clayman]

Ed Getka, It isn't about whether Tom(or you) Like his work, Its about publically denegrating the man's work. The day I see Tom MacWood's balls hanging out there, with his own artwork, he would have more of a right to call another's artist work into question. Until that time, this frank and open discussion is lowered with comments such as the one Tom made on this thread. You won't convince me my opinion is wrong, I've held it for a very long time regarding artists.  Tom would do better to list the reasons why he dislikes Jim work and discuss it. Not throw pot shots.

[Steve Burrows]

I'd like to think that our tastes continually change throughout our lives.  I'm not sure that we can always attribute the changes to an individual event, like playing a particular golf course, but rather to the very natural process of human maturation, for good or for bad.  These changes result in phases of growth and artistic expression (think about Picasso's "Blue" period).  But our attitudes are also functions of the period in which we live.  For example, post-war golf course design was all but dominated by RTJ Sr. and, at the time, he was celebrated for his contributions.  However, the passage of time and changes in taste have opened up the doors of design philosophy and have ultimately soured many people's opinion of his work.

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't know that my tastes have changed, but this site has helped me to understand WHY I like what I like, as well as why I don't like the other stuff.  

Kind of like taking a music appreciation course.

[Jason Topp]

Mine have to some extent, but I actually think I primarily just understand my tastes better than I used to.

I've always preferred golden age courses, and now can articulate why: (1) they provide interesting choices and difficult challenges while allowing anyone to get around the course (2) because the architects were forced to work with the land, the slopes of the courses provide much more interesting challenges than later architects have been able to create artificially, (3) difficult, but relatively crude sloping greens force a number of interesting decisions on the player, which leave difficult but possible recovery opportunities in the case of a bad shot or bad decision and (4) the courses are generally beautiful.

Nonetheless, I used to enjoy, and still enjoy, cookie cutter 1960's era courses (Bunker Hills, Randolph North, Papago, Spencer Country Club, Tucson Country Club, Rio Rico).  I think it is because these courses do meet the first criteria above, but not necessarily the other three.  I would rather play these courses than most of the courses of the 80's and 90's.

Adam - while he has received particulars in the attacks, I do not think anyone has been subjected to more critical scrutiny on this site than Macwood has on his Arts and Crafts articles - which would be his equivilant to Engh's golf courses.  Lighten up Francis.

[T_MacWood]

Adam
To each his own...you like Ken Dye's work too...which is consistant with your appreciation of Engh. We have different tastes.

[ForkaB]

You must, or you have stopped learning, which is the second step (after birth) on the road to your death.......

[Ed_Baker]

Expanded is the case for me.
Through this site and playing with many GCAers I am much more open minded about all golf courses and can better understand my preferences. I am much more likely to appreciate modern golf courses now, particularly because of the permitting issues and less than ideal sites being available, I have great respect for all the GC architects practicing today, they have a much tougher arena to work in than the dead guys did.
But.... I still prefer to play the older golf courses, so in that respect my tastes haven't changed much.

[Walt_Cutshall]

My first impulse is to say that my tastes have changed, but now that I think about it, I would have to say they haven't changed all that much. I still like courses with smallish greens, green complexes that don't force you to necessarily fly the ball onto the green. I still much prefer courses that give you several risk/reward options on each hole. And I like subtle designs. None of that has changed over the 30+ years I've been playing.

Actually, I'm hard pressed to come up with any like/dislikes that have changed. Perhaps I appreciate the ground game more--although I don't get to play/practice it much. There's probably more evolution in my attitudes, but since I'm afflicted with CRS these days, I can't recall enough of the old days to be sure.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

The biggest change for me has to do with lakes, ponds, streams etc.  I think they are way overused.  
I also appreciate a well designed short par four.  
I have grown to love fast greens.  Maybe because I finally learned to putt.

[Mark Arata]

Growing up in the Northeast, I was always in love with the hilly, treelined courses that were all the rage there, now, while I enjoy the good ones, I really tend to favor the links style courses more.....could be that my game (or lack of) tends to favor less forced carries and more roll, but after seeing some of the great links style courses in the US, I enjoy playing that style of course more than the parkland style I grew up with.

[RJ_Daley]

As others above, I think my tastes have become more informed and recognise things in design or construction that strike me favorably and unfavorably.  Perhaps before GCA.com and my own journey of learning about the subjects, I liked what I liked, but didn't readily understand why.  Now, I still like what I like on first impressions, and can go back over those courses and see the details, and lower and raise my opinions based on things I've learned.

My tastes are still eclectic in that I do like various style of courses, yet they are better informed as I experience those courses more in detail and form judgements.

[Bob_Huntley]

Forty years ago I played Pauma Valley and loved everything about it. I need to go back and see whether it was irrational exuberance or not.

Tommy N.  Wasn't this a top 100'er at one time?

Bob

[David Stamm]

 Hi Bob, I'm new to the discussion group. I'll actually be playing Pauma Valley in the next week or two. I can give you an update if your interested.

David Stamm
San Marcos, CA

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I don't think my tastes have changed enormously.  I've always been able to find something positive to take away from just about every course I've played, with a few sterile exceptions among our local pay-and-play courses.  My experience has been greatly enhanced over the years and that has informed my judgement, but I still find that what I liked 40 years ago (Beau Desert, for instance) I still like just as much.  Unfortunately, as my golf has deteriorated so much in recent years, I don't enjoy the courses as much as I once did, although I appreciate them just as much.  My knowledge has been hugely enhanced by exposure to GCA and having met (and even played with) some of you.

[Glenn Spencer]

I grew up on Long Island and Ohio, my tastes will never change.

[Tim Pitner]

Yes, because of this website, I appreciate the older, shorter courses more and the newer, "long and strong" courses less.  Now, I still enjoy a par 4 that asks me to hit a solid drive and a crisp 4 or 5 iron, but I'm more open to courses that may require something less than driver off the tee and offer more subtle challenges.

Unfortunately, we don't have many classic courses in Colorado so my need to travel has also increased because of this website.

[John_Conley]

Forty years ago I played Pauma Valley and loved everything about it. I need to go back and see whether it was irrational exuberance or not.

Tommy N.  Wasn't this a top 100'er at one time?

Yes.