The Fort in Indianapolis had great alternate shot patterns!

[Jay Flemma]

What a nice, low impact, inexpensive day.  With a twilight rate of only $35, Pete Dye's renovation of the old army base course at Fort Benjamin Harrison has great horizontal movement in the fairways, no water hazards (although there is some internal OB) and some great alternate shot patterns.  

It gets 28,000 rounds a year, yet the fairways were in good condition.  I played late in the day, so the greens were a little bumpy and on the slow side, but the hole shapes are variations on holes we've seen at PGA West 5 (the fifteenth at Fort...just sub sand for the water!) and 14-15 at Sawgrass....fade off the tee, draw into the green, then draw off the tee fade into the green.

My favorite stretch is 5-8.  5 is a downhill par-3 with an "E" shaped bunker (I made a sandie .  6 and 7 are back to back par-5s with different alt shot patterns.  On six, three bunkers bisect the fairway in two offering great variety of options and angles.

Finally, 8 doesnt look like much at first blush, but the green's axis is angled to the left...right toward a specimen tree...the closer to the tree, the better the angle...HOWEVER...for shorter hitters who are on the right, the green tests distance control, not accuracy.  If you're really long, you can drive it the 337/308.

Bethpage Black is still the country's best muni (or is it Pinon Hills?), but its really inexpensive and Dye took great pride in infusing strategy on every hole, so Hoosiers are rightly proud of her.

Thanks to the Indy GCA crew for recommending her for my last minute visit.

[John Nixon]

Glad you liked it, Jay. I like #8 as well - always an intriguing hole to play.

[Jay Flemma]

Yeah, its a real sleeper that you can't take lightly.  What's your thoughts on 10?  Might it make a better LONG par-3?  Or is oit better as a really short (283/308) par-4?

[John Nixon]

There's plenty of long par 3 there already for me - #3 and #17 fill that role nicely, thanks. I like it just fine as a short par 4. I usually lay up to ensure I'm in the fairway and to leave myself a full swing for the approach, but one of these days I'm gonna try and drive the tee shot down to the bottom of the hill and take my chances with a blind pitch. Can't be any worse than the results I've had with the other method.

I also agree with 5-8 being a nice stretch of holes, though I'd add 9 and 10. Nine is not all that hard a hole to get a pretty good score on, but it requires some shotmaking to get to birdie territory, I think.

[Brad Klein]

The Fort is not just a Pete Dye course, it is a Pete Dye-Tim Liddy course, with the design associate in this case doing a good part of the real work on that place.

[Jay Flemma]

Then Kudos to Tim as well.  Can you highlight any elements there that Tim uses as a solo designer that we might see at one of his courses?

[Tim Liddy]

Jay,

Great question and one I am sure you will answer when you observe the differences in your travels and reviews.  There is no question in my mind that our personalities greatly affect the final product (maybe it’s my golf game) and Dye’s genius on details, routings and his bold edges are typically softened in my work, especially the genius part.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

Besides softening edges and being modest, what (if anything) DO you try to do differently than Mr. Dye when you're working on your own?

[Tim Liddy]

It is hard for me to generalize.  Each commission is so different. Each varies with the client, the site and the personnel on the job. Mr. Dye is very focused on the tour player and the yardages they hit their shots because many of his golf course are used for tournament play.  
My solo commissions are typically not tournament golf courses, but public golf and country club remodels –normally different priorities and past functional issues that need to be corrected (drainage, poor golf hole layout, etc). I do not try to be different (or the same) from Dye, but to do whatever is appropriate for the client and the site.

Even my work with Dye is different from job-to-job and site-to-site (as you experience with each job and client) and that is what keeps it fun.

Finally, the craftsmen that are building the golf course with me have a great impact on the differences of the product.  Each of these guys bring their own abilities and craft to a project, and working within that framework is great enjoyment for me.

[Adam Clayman]

Tim, Congrats on all that good stuff.

Jay, I'm shocked you didnt think Wild Horse was the best value for a public golf course in the country. With honerables going to Black Mesa, Pinon hills and Paa-Ko Ridge.

[Brad Klein]

having watched Tim Liddy work on Wintonbury Hills for five+ years, including every step of the routing and construction (and keeping in mind that Dye tracked the work but entrusted it to Liddy), here's what I've seen and come to appreciate of Liddy's approach:

-walkable routing, with proximity of greens to tees
-workable cart path flow to accommodate drainage, safety, maintenance, but keeping them away from central lines of play
-attention to safety margins at landing areas of adjoining holes
-playability from all sets of tees and willing to make angle and views from back tees more awkward
-detailed plans for bid documentation purposes, knowing it will be adjusted in the field without exceeding materials volumes (and perhaps saving some)
-minimizing forced carries, esp, from forward tees
-using bunkers to appear dramatic and ominious while actually using them to steer and orient players by aligning their axes towards desired lines of play (subtle stuff here)
-keeping greens slopes under 2.5 percent but making sure there's always 1.5 percent to deal with
-personally supervising site work and slowing down contractor if necessary to ensure quality; proving ongoing guidance rather than relying on exhaustively detailed 2-dimensional construction plans
-making cuts and fills look natural and playable by grading them out
-focusing on angles and strategies rather than length
-attention to maintainability of bunkers and slopes, depending upon intended budget and labor regimen

This was in a municipal context. I've alos seen enough of his work elsewhere on private renovation work (Skidaway Island, GA) and Ross restoration (Hyde Park, OH) to know he can kick up the aesthetics and slopes when needed and when the maintenance commitment is there.

[PThomas]

Tim, Congrats on all that good stuff.

Jay, I'm shocked you didnt think Wild Horse was the best value for a public golf course in the country. With honerables going to Black Mesa, Pinon hills and Paa-Ko Ridge.

GCA's Jim Thompson's Angels Crossing goes into the above category as well

[Andy Troeger]

Brad,
From playing most of the Fort (darkness) and two other affordable public courses in Indiana done by Mr. Liddy (Rock Hollow and Sultan's Run), the comments you make seem to apply to those courses as well.  I especially like the angles and strategies comment. I love the variety of holes at Rock Hollow, with three par fours that are practically drivable and some other much more difficult challenges. I'm hoping to get back to Sultan's Run this fall to refresh my memory of that one, but I remember it as being one of the most fun courses I've played.

All said, they are my favorite three public courses in Indiana (having played maybe half of the contenders) and would have to be considered some of the best deals I've found too (Angels Crossing and Paa-Ko Ridge would also qualify).

[Doug Ralston]

One more pitch ....... ;

Some of the best deals in the Country are here in Kentucky. No sure if there is even a public course over $50. And I have to say Dale Hollow, Eagle Ridge, Hidden Cove on the Signature Series, and Big Blue, the UK course, are very nice courses, as are quite a few others.

Sultan's Run is one of my favorite courses to play, at less than $50. I doubt many have a hole most beautiful than the 18th with the waterfall backdrop.

This thread has raised 'The Fort' in my priority list.

Doug

[Jay Flemma]

Tim, thanks for jumping in on this thread.  Brad, that's really interesting stuff...especially the thoughts on Wintonbury.

It just so happend I played trophy club yesterday and saw alot of things that are on dye courses there as well.  Theree were lots of alternate shot patterns and I recognized a strategy on the par threes form Bulle Rock and othe rdye courses where "fearing the water on one side, you inadvertantly point yourself at the bunker on the other and ...lo-and-behold...your pitching out of the bunker back toward the water."

Great use of bisected fairways and center bunkers too.  I especially liked 11 and 18.

The Ball State U. team had a team tournament there yesterday and had a great time.  Mike Fleck said to say "hi."

That C.D. Hochersmith (sp?) sure can play...it was amazing watching those kids get up and down from EVERYWHERE.

[Chris Moore]

Could someone explain what is meant by the term "alternate shot patterns" and how that concept is used to evaluate architectural merit?

[Jay Flemma]

e.g. fade off the tee, then draw into the green.

It's a way of keeping expert golfers a drop more off balance so they dont get in a groove.

Best example I kow of is Sawgrass - 14 and fifteen.  One is draw off the tee, fade into the green, the next is fade off the tee, draw into the green.

[John Nixon]

Jay, I noticed in your blog write-up of your visit you mention you did not know who designed the original course at Ft. Harrison. I may be wrong, but I believe Bill Diddel did the original course, which I never played.

[Jay Flemma]

Excellent.  Even the folks there didn't know that!  Thank you.

[Tim Liddy]

Jay,

I am not sure about that.  Mr. Diddle might have remodel or added nine to the original golf course. He definitely worked on it, but not sure if he did the original nine golf holes.  Let me check and get back with you on it.

Great that you got to meet the Ball State team.  Go Ball State!!
Next time let me know and would be happy to meet up with you.

[John Nixon]

Thanks Tim. As I said, I wasn't sure about Mr. Diddel doing it, but that's what I'd heard from someone who seemed to know.

[Tim Liddy]

Cornish and Whitten’s book “The Golf Course” has it as 1970 by William Diddle, but pretty sure there was a nine hole golf course there before, but not sure who did it. Mr. Dye knew Mr. Diddle pretty well. He helped him get started in the golf business.