[Eric_Terhorst]

I'll express a minority opinion and say that I just might prefer St Andrews Beach over either Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal.

Hey, isn't that off topic?

Tim Pitner, I agree with you and Adam that #3 at PD is a wonderful hole and the best of PD's par fives.  But I have never cared for #18, which probably is natural but never felt very natural to me, and feels a little too tight, especially after 12 and 15. I like all three par 5s at BN for those reasons--they feel like they've been there forever, there's nothing "constraining" about them, and there are 50,000 ways to make 4 or 5--or 7 or 8.

As for the no tee markers, it's just plain fun.  I wouldn't have thought it would work, but it does.

Adam, I don't think it boils down to fun vs. challenge.  I think both courses have it all on both those counts. My score was better at BN, but I think that's because the greens were still slow...

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

To be fair, your complete comment was that you thought Ballyneal was certainly better than Barnbougle, but you might like St. Andrews Beach more.  The combination of the two was what elicited my expression, since 94% prefer Barnbougle to St. Andrews Beach ... even if I might be one of the 6%.

Everyone else:

I agree with most of your hole-by-hole comparisons but I do think that #15 at Pacific Dunes is very underrated in this discussion.  It takes some guts to bomb your drive into the funnel downwind, and the second shot running up the bank is a great links golf play -- I wish Ballyneal had something like it.

[ForkaB]

Tom

I think that PD#15 is just a bit too long to really make the approach shot thriliing as its template, the 14th at Dornoch.  Watching a 220 yard wood fizzle it's way up (or not up) the slope at the front of pd15 is nothing compared to watching a 180 yard whatever iron trying to either roll up the hill or carry (and stick) onto the green at rd14.  Also at rd14 there is a really chance (and a real penalty) for going long.  I don't remember that at pd15, but I've only played it 4-5 times, so I might have been mistaken.

Cheers

Rich

PS--I must admit that watching one of our stalwarts turning purple as he tried various ways to pitch and/or run up that greensite hump was almost as fun to me as watching another of our mutant-purple stalwarts go from bunker to bunker on the 11th at Shinnecock.  Not thatI'm evil or anytihng.....

[Adam Clayman]

One aspect of Ballyneal that I find refreshing is the apparent lack of relevance par holds, on all but the one shotters. The wind determines what par is on any specific day.


Since I have not golfed PD, can the same be said there?

[Tim Pitner]

Eric,

#18 is not among my favorite holes at Pacific Dunes, but it's still a fine hole.  It has enormous scale, mostly because of the massive dunes on the left.  It's a legitimate 3-shotter, which is somewhat unique for a finishing hole.  Too tight?  There's quite a bit of room out there for your drive, although you're often forced right because of the trouble left.  Not natural?  You admit that's not actually the case; I'm not sure where your feeling comes from.  Some have criticized the bunkering around the green, but it demands a precise shot from an iron that can be uncomfortably long.  

My comparison of the two courses is handicapped by the fact that I've played PD many more times than Ballyneal.  But, as I review the par 5s at Ballyneal in my mind, I would say that they're the weakest component of the course.  #4 offers a great view from the tee, but isn't that much different in kind from a hole like #12 at PD; #8 is probably the best par 5, but still doesn't make it into the top 50% of holes at Ballyneal; and I might be in the minority, but #16 wasn't one of my favorites either.  Luckily, Ballyneal has several world-class par 3s and 4s that carry the day.  

I already feel bad about criticizing, to some degree, the par 5s at Ballyneal because analyzing a course hole by hole doesn't tell the whole story to me.  I prefer to look at the course from a holistic perspective, and Ballyneal clearly comes out extremely well in that analysis.  

[Tom Huckaby]

PS--I must admit that watching one of our stalwarts turning purple as he tried various ways to pitch and/or run up that greensite hump was almost as fun to me as watching another of our mutant-purple stalwarts go from bunker to bunker on the 11th at Shinnecock.  Not thatI'm evil or anytihng.....

Hey, I resemble that remark.   But it was grass behind the green.  Well jousted anyway.  

[Tim Pitner]

One aspect of Ballyneal that I find refreshing is the apparent lack of relevance par holds, on all but the one shotters. The wind determines what par is on any specific day.

Since I have not golfed PD, can the same be said there?

Well, the obvious answer is that it's quite windy at Pacific Dunes so, yes, par 4s like #7 and #13 can play like 5s, and par 5s like #12 and #15 can play like 4s, depending on the wind.  But, as Tom D said, Ballyneal has more long par 4s than Pacific Dunes so, consequently, PD has fewer par 4s that play as par 5s.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Doak said, "... that #15 at Pacific Dunes is very underrated in this discussion.  It takes some guts to bomb your drive into the funnel downwind, and the second shot running up the bank is a great links golf play -- I wish Ballyneal had something like it."

Tom, you do have something at Ballyneal like it -- it's the par-5 8th hole. There is a very tight bottleneck down on the left side and the approach is every bit the equal of what you see with the 15th at Pac -- frankly, I see the hole at Ballyneal to be the better of the two given the degree of difficulty with the tee shot and the manner by which the right hand bunker pinches in from that side.

You also said, "If I gave each of the holes a 1-10 rating, I think Pacific Dunes would fare just as well if not better.  But the big difference for Matt, I'm sure, is that Ballyneal has six legitimate long par-4's [holes 2, 6, 10, 13, 17 and 18] and Pacific Dunes has just three [holes 4, 7, and 13, which match up well against any three of Ballyneal's six].  

Matt is going to say that the other three holes at Ballyneal are better than the extra par-3 at Pacific (the 14th) and the extra par-5 (the 12th) and one of the medium par-4's at Pacific (let's say the 9th).  And that's his taste, because that's the way he hits it.  But I think that on the other 15 holes, Pacific Dunes is a couple of lengths in front, so it would be a horse race to the wire and different judges might see it differently."

Tom, I do appreciate telling me what I am going to say before I say it. It does save me a good bit of time in typing my personal thoughts.

Pac Dunes is a fine course but in the course of your work as a designer I would think -- forgive me for my crystal ball musings -- that with each new project you would become even better as an architect as you tweak all the ideas you have had previously. I see that with Ballyneal -- I see a better mixture of holes and less of a desire to follow any particular pattern of redundancy.

The par-4's at Pac and Ballyneal are very close to each other in terms of variety and design quality. I see Ballyneal's edge in the routing area -- along with the overall better par-3 and par-5 holes. The margin is not as wide as the Grand Canyon for sure, but it's certainly there for me.

Now that I have spoken you can come back with a reply that further states what you think I will say next.

 

[Eric_Terhorst]

Eric,

#18 is not among my favorite holes at Pacific Dunes, but it's still a fine hole.  It has enormous scale, mostly because of the massive dunes on the left.  It's a legitimate 3-shotter, which is somewhat unique for a finishing hole.  Too tight?  There's quite a bit of room out there for your drive, although you're often forced right because of the trouble left.  Not natural?  You admit that's not actually the case; I'm not sure where your feeling comes from.  Some have criticized the bunkering around the green, but it demands a precise shot from an iron that can be uncomfortably long.  

Tim,
Your comments and another I saw from Mr. Doak on another thread caused me to think that he has probably deceived me into feeling "tight" on the 18th's 1st and 2nd shots.  But on that hole I "feel" as if I'm hitting right off the tee to avoid trouble left, then left on the second shot to avoid trouble right and to get into position to get a good look at the green (which I like, btw), but obviously not too far left.  That type of see-saw strategy doesn't appeal to me, but I am expressing a personal preference, not a criticism (and I may be missing altogether several better ways to play the hole).  If I was talking about #5 at Whistling Straits , the "Snake" hole, which is totally manufactured and is my least favorite hole on a course I otherwise like, then it would be a criticism.

But I am disheartened to read Mr. Doak's comment that it takes "guts" to blast away at PD#15 when it's playing downwind.  Wait a minute Tom!  It says on the web site that "This hole offers a generous landing area, so relax and make a great swing" which I think I have done successfully at least once or twice on that hole.  Now I have to think about how it takes "guts!"  aaargh!

[Tom_Doak]

Eric:

The descriptions of the holes at Pacific Dunes were written by one of the professionals out there, not by me.

On 15, most players can blast away but when it's downwind the long hitter has to be careful as the fairway necks down drastically about 330 yards from the back tee.

Matt:

The 8th at Ballyneal is indeed a lot like the 15th at Pacific Dunes in plan view, but the nature of the approach shot is much different -- at Pacific you have to decide whether you are running it up the bank or flying it on, at Ballyneal you can just fire away and either might work.  None of the par-fives at Ballyneal really encourage a running shot if you've left yourself a short third (although the right half of the green on the sixth does that if you are short in two).

[Adam Clayman]

  None of the par-fives at Ballyneal really encourage a running shot if you've left yourself a short third (although the right half of the green on the sixth does that if you are short in two).

Ok, who has stolen Tom's puter and is posting in his place?
The sixth?

Tim Pitner, The eighth hole is the sexiest hole on the golf course. Your opinion of the hole is fascinating and IMO, flawed.

[Sean Leary]

I agree with Adam.  8 might be my favorite hole and it definitely is my favorite green.....

[PThomas]

I agree with Adam.  8 might be my favorite hole and it definitely is my favorite green.....

interesting...pls explain why

[Sean Leary]

Paul,

I think it is mainly the green complex.  We got some very severe hole positions the 3 days I played there and almost every round I was either on in two or chipping from in front and never made birdie in 5 rounds.

On a separate note, I also saw one on my playing partners fly the right dune/bunker from the back tee, which may be the longest drive I have ever seen in my life. We estimated it as about a 330 to 340 carry.

[Adam Clayman]

Paul T- Here's my three thousand words. If you have any more questions I'll be happy to try to visualize more for you.

[Jordan Wall]

Paul,

I think it is mainly the green complex.  We got some very severe hole positions the 3 days I played there and almost every round I was either on in two or chipping from in front and never made birdie in 5 rounds.

On a separate note, I also saw one on my playing partners fly the right dune/bunker from the back tee, which may be the longest drive I have ever seen in my life. We estimated it as about a 330 to 340 carry.

Sean,

Weren't you saying he had something like a wedge into that hole?

I remember the talk in the clubhouse last month, when you were saying how long he hit the ball.
It was hard to realize how far he hit the ball, until I saw your drives, and you said he was something like 50+ yards farther than you..
You aren't exactly a short hitter, either..

Crazy

[Tim Bert]

I enjoyed the par 5s at Ballyneal, and #8 was my personal favorite, which I would probably put ahead of the par 5s at PD.  The first shot on that hole was okay, but the fun really kicked in after that.  I liked the placement of the fairway bunkers that drive shots right of the green, which is a spot that can be treacherous on a little pitch or bump.  The green is one of the most fun I've played, and it wasn't even rolling fast when I was there.  

3,000 more words...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

OMG those pictures are so good they take your breath away.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim Pitner, The eighth hole is the sexiest hole on the golf course. Your opinion of the hole is fascinating and IMO, flawed.

Well, at least my opinion is fascinating.  I typically don't go for the "sexiest" holes on a course; I tend to gravitate toward the less heralded.  I went through my Ballyneal yardage book and realize that I may have overstated things.  #8 is definitely the best par 5 at Ballyneal and may be included in the top half of the holes there--it's just not among my particular favorites, which would include #1 (mostly for the tee shot), #5, #6, #7, #10 and #15.  I also like #12, #13, #17 and #18 a whole lot (what can I say, I like par 4s--maybe that's why I like PD's front nine so much).

#8 at Ballyneal has a wildly undulating green--it's great fun, but it doesn't make the hole.  It's certainly a great looking hole.  I played it once from the back tees and once from a set up.  It played similarly from each.  I recall thinking that #8 and (to a greater degree) #9 were not quite at the level of #5 - #7.  Clearly, the best par 5 at an amazing course like Ballyneal is a very good hole--it just wasn't one I thought of as a favorite after playing it twice.  Perhaps it would grow on me after more rounds, much like #15 did at PD.

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