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Tom Huckaby

Re:What makes a golf course "great"?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2006, 05:40:32 PM »
Mark:

Oh my, but do you have me mistaken for someone else.  I have never argued for a Michelin-type system, and in fact have argued that such would be rather boring, for the reasons I stated in the last post.  Sure in the end there are no definitive answers to any rankings, but does that make them uninteresting and not worth the discussion?  I find separating the courses determined to be great to be fascinating - revealing as much if not more about the assessor than the assessed.  And just for that reason, they are OK by me.  

BUT... as a policy issue - that is in terms of the effects on golf course architecture and the great game itself - I fully agree that a Michelin/Doak system would be far superior to what we have today, which can make or break careers (as I alluded to before) and is nuts without a doubt.

I just find the whole argument rather silly - the magazines make plenty of money with the system as is, so there's little incentive for them to change anything, so why bother speculating and arguing about that?  And then, why not have some fun with what we're stuck with?

TH

ps - you also picked a WRONG example for me when you mentioned French Laundry - I patently hate the place because I was treated like shit there and refuse to ever accept a good word about it.  But I do get your point.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 05:46:29 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Doug Ralston

Re:What makes a golf course "great"?
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2006, 05:49:00 PM »
This is an easy one!

Since 'great' is entirely subjective' I get to say only what makes a course 'great' to me.

If feel like the Judge who was asked to define pornography. After some thought he said "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

When I walk off a course and wonder why in the World I must leave ........ that's it!!

No need for indefinable and inconsistent specifics.

Doug

Tom Huckaby

Re:What makes a golf course "great"?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2006, 05:55:35 PM »
Doug - just because I am having fun with this - you don't get off so easy either.   ;)

That's a fine enough way to define greatness... although some (like me) would say that about just about every course they play, as they just love playing the game so much... but...

How do you determine which course you want to say that about more?  Or does that matter?  And if not, well... how big or small is the universe of courses you'd say that about?  Are you at all interested in prioritizing, or can you play any course anywhere any time you want?

That's another value of rankings and differentiation - it allows one to prioritize where to spend his time and money.  Who has unlimited quantities of either?

TH

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What makes a golf course "great"?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2006, 06:59:16 PM »
Tom Huckaby,

Not vain, but confident in the abilities of that team.

One would think that if they'll let you build a huge hotel and asphalt parking lot, that they'd let you build a few good golf holes on the same location.

The question is, do you go with the Kidd concept, the Doak concept, or a combination of both.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 06:59:59 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes a golf course "great"?
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2006, 07:26:27 PM »
Huck,

I cannot openly disagree with your comments on my variety post but I would maintain that this is a staple among all great courses while conceding that some not so great courses might, even if to a lesser degree, offer variety.  

While I have not played PGA West I would question it as a sample of a course with variety as I defined it. Requiring the use of all clubs is not a true example of variety, certainly a derivation, but not if you relate to how I TRIED to define it (on my way out the door to a meeting by the way). I can be required to use all clubs in my bag but in doing so also be required to carry artifical hazards on most shots... that is not variety. That is a variety in yardage perhaps but not a variety in the sense of overall examination...

As for your local par 3 example... I wondered... Would it not be interesting to see an event offer up such conditions... requiring forced carries to softer greens yet not allowing the aerial game on others all through green firmness. Not really necessary... this is why I disagree with many who do not think Pinehurst #2 is a great course... don't they achieve exaclty that through contouring and, albeit sometimes absurd, green speeds? The same "examination" is generally provided to the less talented plyers on a daily basis when greens are not quite so fast... that is they are not required to hit SUCH a precise spot but still are asked to be rather precise with an apporach or the ball will fall away, bound over, roll back...?

 

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes a golf course "great"?
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2006, 07:30:57 PM »


ps - you also picked a WRONG example for me when you mentioned French Laundry - I patently hate the place because I was treated like shit there and refuse to ever accept a good word about it.  But I do get your point.

Two instances now -- and in the last week no less -- where you've been treated like crap at a high-class joint, Tom... are you bringing these situations on yourself?  For the love of God, Man, at least expound on ONE of them!

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes a golf course "great"?
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2006, 10:06:38 PM »
without any weaknesses regardless of whatever category one wishes to evaluate it.
these are few and far between imho.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes a golf course "great"?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2006, 10:13:59 PM »
To quote Mr. Ben Crenshaw, "Time."

You can just tell when the architect has spent time getting to know the land.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:What makes a golf course "great"?
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2006, 10:45:10 AM »


ps - you also picked a WRONG example for me when you mentioned French Laundry - I patently hate the place because I was treated like shit there and refuse to ever accept a good word about it.  But I do get your point.

Two instances now -- and in the last week no less -- where you've been treated like crap at a high-class joint, Tom... are you bringing these situations on yourself?  For the love of God, Man, at least expound on ONE of them!

James - must be my luck.  But please understand it's just an odd coincidence these both came up so close together... I'd have to guess my batting average at receiving nice treatment at nice places is only a tiny bit less than most people.  These are the only two instances.

Re CGC, it doesn't help to post again here, it just casts the club in an unfair bad light and like I say, I've come to believe it was just a bad day by a couple bad people.  If you really want more details, IM me.

Re French Laundry, screw that place - and it's not as if anything I post here is gonna matter for jack anyway... The nuts and bolts of our evening there were like this:

1. After many many tries, obtain reservation for a special evening with two of our best friends, celebrating the birthday of one.  Only time we can get is 9:30, but that's cool, we'll plan for it.  Friends fly up from SoCal, we decide to make a big Napa weekend of it.

2. The big day arrives... we arrive at FL at 9:15.  Hostess takes our name, we stand in that tiny cramped waiting area.  It was too cold to sit outside.

3.  9:30 - nothing. 10:00 - nothing.  10:15 - someone finally appears, says our table will be ready "soon."  10:30 - nothing.  11:00 - nothing.  Note no offers of any drinks, no attention, NOTHING.  I'm talking no one emerging from behind the doors.  We are the only ones in the tiny waiting room.  11:15, the decision is made that hell, the meals there usually take 3 hours or so, and no one wants to eat into the wee hours of the morning.  We decide to bail.  I go through the doors, tell someone we are leaving, they give no care or notice or whatever, just an "OK."  So we leave... and only after we are outside, someone comes running after us to tell us our table is ready.  Thanks, but no thanks.

I can understand timing in restaurants and especially at that place, things running behind.  Nearly two hours is a lot, but hey, I could have forgiven them... if they only would have given us one ounce of commonly decent attention.  This was ludicrous.

Thus my one-man campaign agains this restaurant.... I'm sure they'll survive.

 ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re:What makes a golf course "great"?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2006, 11:16:55 AM »
The real lesson is that it's better to be treated like a somebody nowhere than a nobody somewhere.

Corollary: The truly great somewheres treat nobodies like somebodies!

Mark

Indeed, and very well said.  I am most definitely a nobody, and have been made to feel like quite the somebody at places where I truly didn't deserve it.  But what a feeling that is.  The contrast, well... it just stands out.

 ;)

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