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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing compromise for the sake of clubhouse location
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2006, 03:25:43 PM »
Adam,

With most courses complaining about losing money, I don't think the perpetual cash machine theory works too well. It does in special places, and I guess we would all want them to be those kind of places, but as mentioned - the condo developer is usually not the same as the golf developer - at least for very long. He wants to get in and get out and leave the marginal profits of golf to someone else.

Tommy,

I was actually talking of my Quarry at Giants Ridge in Minnesota. Does it ALWAYS have to be about Fazio? ;D

I don't like the overly sanitized look at Quarry at La Quinta, but figure that anyone paying over a $Mill for a homesite doesn't want to look at "scarred land" and the developer accommodated.  

I haven't really studied many routings to know what "might have been" and consider it an excersise in futility anyway, whether on his, Doak's or whoever's course.  And please remember, Fazio did take architecture to "another level" a dozen years in many ways, esp. with Shadow Creek, possibly spawning the anti-Fazio movement precisely because no one could do that better, so they need to do something else.

You may not like the modern style, but its just that - a golf design style. Its not the end of the free world as we know it.  And, while you like a rugged look, and we will probably be forced a bit more that way by politics of water as an industry, I have had the pleasure of playing two very high end CC's this week, including a Fazio, and have to tell you, most people want the maintenance to be as high as possible and refined as possible.  But you already know that!  

My point is that rants may get listened to by those who could change golf, or they may get tuned out.  I guess since we are talking about clubhouse siting and you turn it into a rant on all that is bad about Fazio, IMHO, you will be tuned out.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Routing compromise for the sake of clubhouse location
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2006, 03:29:11 PM »
Adam Clayman,

To date, you're the only person I've ever known who thinks the design at Spanish Bay is the best it could have been.

Most everyone I've ever talked to feels that the golf course represents one of the greatest opportunities ever lost, especially given the uniqueness of the site.

When comparing the sites at Sandpines and Spanish Bay, Spanish Bay wins by a landslide margin.  The site was spectacular.  The product, mediocre at best.

Had the clubhouse/hotel been sited as far east as possible, leaving all of the land between the hotel and ocean for golf, there's not a doubt in my mind that a far better golf course would have been designed and built.

Ask yourself this question.

Given free reign on the site, would Doak, Kidd, C&C, Dye, Hanse, Kelly Blake Moran and many, many others have produced a better golf course ?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing compromise for the sake of clubhouse location
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2006, 03:56:29 PM »
Adam Clayman,

To date, you're the only person I've ever known who thinks the design at Spanish Bay is the best it could have been.I've never said those words you just put into my mouth

Most everyone I've ever talked to feels that the golf course represents one of the greatest opportunities ever lost, especially given the uniqueness of the site.You of all people know how periphreal factors shape a project. In SB's case they were centered around the hotel/resort Not surprising considring who was making the decisions at the time of conception.

When comparing the sites at Sandpines and Spanish Bay, Spanish Bay wins by a landslide margin.  The site was spectacular.  The product, mediocre at best.Plus, What is/was so great about a spent quarry? Pete Dye wanted to move the road. Had he been given the green light I'm sure the course would've been better than what's there. Many could've done better. Who cares? Analyse whats there? Not what woulda should coulda. I've ask you previously, for specific examples of what's bad about whats there. As of yet, not one response. I even detailed what was there, encouraging your oinion and still nothing.

Had the clubhouse/hotel been sited as far east as possible, leaving all of the land between the hotel and ocean for golf, there's not a doubt in my mind that a far better golf course would have been designed and built.

Ask yourself this question.

Given free reign on the site, would Doak, Kidd, C&C, Dye, Hanse, Kelly Blake Moran and many, many others have produced a better golf course ?

Patrick-

 I find irresponsible statements like the ones Paul Richards made recently about Spanish Bay to be quite telling. After asking for his specific critique of the golf course, he remained resolved in just pronouncing that it sucks. That is not analysis, it's rhetoric. Please do us the favor of finally analysing what is on the ground? not some fictitious un-provable opinion of what could've been. That is all I ever said about SB. Not the words you placed on my lips in your opener.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 03:57:33 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing compromise for the sake of clubhouse location
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2006, 04:24:39 PM »
I often joke to Don Knott about my experience at Spanish Bay...it goes like this...



FORREST   Say, Don, I will always remember my round at Spanish Bay...

DON   Oh, did you like the course?

FORREST   Didn't get to see it. Fogged in from beginning to end.

DON   What about the routing...did you like that?

FORREST   Don't know. Even our caddies got lost at one point. We nearly lost one of our group to a pedestrian accident on 17 Mile Drive.



« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 04:25:17 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Routing compromise for the sake of clubhouse location
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2006, 04:30:36 PM »
Adam,

I provided my analysis years ago.

Many of the holes were lacking, some due to the proximity of the ESA's, others due to poor design, which in some cases might have been due to locating the hotel first and the golf course second.

You might recall our debate with respect to the second par 3 on the front nine where the cattails were so high the only thing you could see was the flag, not knowing where the green or hazards were in relation to the flag.  You've indicated that that condition has since been corrected.

While you may be attracted to Spanish Bay, I have no desire to play it again, given other choices.

To view Spanish Bay in the sole context of its present configuration doesn't go to the heart of the matter and the title of this thread.

Mike Keiser considered a clubhouse location that would have compromised the golf, he wisely chose to site the clubhouse such that the golf course benefited from the available land.

Spanish Bay chose a different path, and as such, you shouldn't expect them to receive a pass for comprimising the quality of the golf course placed upon the site.

Naccarato, TEPaul, Ran, you and I could have designed a better golf course given free reign.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Routing compromise for the sake of clubhouse location
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2006, 04:34:43 PM »
While I'm sure Adam can and will give a very cogent reply... and while I have zero desire to debate Spanish Bay again - I truly believe we've come to an agreement there (it could have been better, it's lesser than it's neighbors, but in the overall context of golf courses it's still pretty darn good)... but.....

I must take issue with this:

Naccarato, TEPaul, Ran, you and I could have designed a better golf course given free reign.

First of all, the chances of anyone being given "free reign" on that site are absolutely nil - you do understand the CA Coastal Commission, right?

But more importantly, you guys can't be this vain.  Oh, I love ya, I really do.  But the professionals do this for a reason, and we bitch about it on here for a reason.

 ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Routing compromise for the sake of clubhouse location
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2006, 05:04:12 PM »
Tom Huckaby,

It's my understanding that the CCC had little influence on this project.

It's also my understanding that a commercial-industrial venture occupied the site prior to the golf course.

Creativity doesn't require official recognition by the ASGCA before it rears its beautiful head.

I have no doubt in my mind that the aforementioned team could have created a superior golf course, given free reign,
provided that I was in charge. ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re:Routing compromise for the sake of clubhouse location
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2006, 05:06:41 PM »
Patrick:

OK, you convinced me - you are that vain.

 ;D ;D


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