[Steve Lapper]

Just some info for anyone who cares....

Played WF West yesterday and witnessed the construction of a new tee on #12, the Cape hole. The new back tee will lengthen the hole to 615yds from the tips and finally provide a bearishly long five par on the course!

Speaking with several members in the know, they all agreed that this was "offered up as a suggestion by the USGA" for the upcoming 04' Am and the following US Open. Alone, this will make the course play at least 7,041 yds from the champoinship tees.....that can be stretched internally to at least 7,150+

This course hardly needs much toughening as it can be set up brutally if desired. A brand new and quite extensive electronically controlled irrigation system is being installed on the West and promises, in the words of an asst. super, "to allow us to localize the course maintence to each area and grow or starve any grassy area in the roughs as well as the fairway.....very interesting.

This all begets my basic question....is this another example of a classic and already challenging course surrendering to technology and ball/club length? Let's talk amongst ourselves!

[Lynn Shackelford]

On who suggested it, has been discussed here often.  Without the USGA recommendation and consent they  probably wouldn't have done it.  However David Fay will say, "it's their club and they have the final say."  In other words, it is not our responsibility.  Sorry to see that the Amateur feels compelled to provide such a stern test.  Takes out the shorter players.
I supposed this doesn't trouble me as much as some changes to classics.  If the members don't like the tee after several years of trying it, they can change it easily enough.  It is when the Fazio's and others who don't appreciate the classics start redoing greens and bunkers, there is no going back.  That is troublesome.

[Steve Lapper]

One add:

They were also in the process of redoing every fairway bunker. The asst. told me absolutely no substantial changes were being made to any shape or location, just sculpting a few edges, reworking some of the drainage and putting in new sand consistent with the greenside bunkers.

Lynn:

I agree with you on every point. Interestingly, One of my playing partners was an Anderson Cup regular and he mentioned that the course was actually tougher from some of the up tees...the mark of a classic.

Let's hope they keep Fazio away permanently.

[Matt_Ward]

slapper:

When you were playing the West did you see any signs for a new tee on #16 or other holes? I had heard there was a plan to extend the tee box at #16 although I don't how you can do really much given the limited amount of space / options, etc. In addition, #16 is one tough long par-4 now. I never saw the hole suffer from having too many birdies made there.

Last question -- can you report on how differently the course plays because of the tree removal program thats taken place?
Does the course now provide more angles into the targets. I'm referencing such holes #1, #8, #9, #17 and #18, to name just a few.

From the times I've played WF I always felt that having Xmas tree pines pushed near the edge of a few fairways and are not trimmed only hampered recovery options and were really not necessary.

Thanks.

[Steve Lapper]

Matt,

Right now 16 is played as a 5 par for the members(and a 4 par for the USGA). I did see some room back there to add another tee, but didn't hear or see anything that would lead me to believe it was going to occur for this or next season.
 Given that the course is undergoing lots of busy construction activity, any other tee construction would occur now, or be delayed until after next season or longer.
  I very nearly had a four there yesterday, but caught a piece of the overhanging left side elm that knocked my shot down in front of the green.

As to tree removal, I can report that the only trees remaining  are the very large elms that would amount to local heresy to remove. #1 is a near perfect stern test of driver, approach iron, and especially putter. I wouldn't thin any further. The same can be said of 9. #8 is in need of a little thinning along the southern edge (the right side of the fairway when looking at the green). There are too many trees in there that do nothing other than make a forest. #17 still has several full trees pinching the right side that might see future trimming.

#18 has been thinned considerably just beyond the right side early fairway bunker. The new irrigation system is going in there between #18 and #11 . I know this area well as I mangaged my best shot of the day from there onto the 18th green and finished with my personal record for that track.

 Many of the tall elms lining almost all the fairways represent a unique hazard unto themselves. They often prevent any heroic recovery shots to the greens from the rough and impair even short shots like from the right side of #5. Accuracy remains at a premium like it should. No wonder Tiger couldn't bully his away around here a few years back too easily.

Thus it can be said that most of the previous angles to the green remain intact with few new ones given (i.e. 18 & 11). I hope it never opens up too much. It felt perfect, even when I was in the wrong place (not too often yesterday ).

Hope that helps!

[SPDB]

Slapper -

I'm afraid your hope of keeping Fazio away is pointless, all of these changes are being done under the direction of his crew, including the tree clearing.

[Steve Lapper]

SPDB,

If that's the case, the changes are so far, relatively benign . Let me change my hope to never allowing Faz to redesign any strategically important changes.

No new green shaping, bunkers look planned!

[Matt_Ward]

slapper:

Give the intense demands on the 2nd shot to many of the par-4's at WF / West I've always believed that the course could be enhanced by really being agressive in getting rid of the trees that have grown in over the years. I'm always struck by the photograph you see of Jones sinking his famous 12-foot par putt on the final (72nd) hole to tie Espinosa in the '29 Open -- there weren't any trees in the background.

I've also believed that WF / West is one course that doesn't need the amount of rough that it usually provides for a major championship. Why? The greens require you to play approaches from specific places in the fairway. If you miss too far either right or left the angle you are faced was only becomes even more daunting.

One of the more facinating aspects of WF is that in the history in holding major championships it wasn't until Love's 269 total in the '97 PGA did someone break the 270 barrier -- and he did it by seven strokes!!! In my mind -- what Love did at WF is no less impressive than when Tiger broke the four-round record at Augusta. In fact -- I believe Love's success is even more impressive because of the intense challenge that WF / West provides over ANGC.

As long as WF / West plays firm and fast you'll have plenty to challenge the world's best. I don't believe adding a new back tee at the 12th helps much -- in fact, it does turn a potential gambling hole into one that becomes a boring three shotter for all with the exception of all but the longest.

I really don't believe you have to monkey around with WF / West that much. The green sites are ably defended and they can only be approached from a particular position. Hard to name a more intense championship course that DOESN'T have to depend upon wind to provide its daily punch.

[Steve Lapper]

Matt,

I'd agree with you in most places, but respectfully disagree with your thoughts about WF's rough. I think, given the advances of the game and the distances obtained, the rough and it's overhanging trees create a warranted penalty for not hitting the fairway. A well struck tee shot that err's ever so slightly at WF will run through a fairway or just off, but still leave a probable chance of recovery. A wildly errant tee ball will not. The rough, when not stiff bermuda or high fescue offers plenty of risk/reward....Tillinghast's goal. The rough gives crappy and decent lies, never perfect ones and that's they way it should be.

Love's '97 PGA victory was indeed stellar and so very worthy, but I was there and while the greens were as perfect as they can get, the roughs help defend the course against further assault on par.

Today's flatstickers are so capable of putting fast breaking surfaces...ala ANGC, that green difficulty no longer serves as
the primary defense in a WF major. Getting the ball 50-100yds closer to the greens allows great short-gamers to flop or air their way onto many spots that previously denied those angles. A prime example is my puting the ball far down the left side, in the left side fairway, on 11 and making a 9 iron to two feet for a birdie to a left front pin (tucked behind the bunker). *That would not have happened had the rough been pinched in and high!
 I'll agree with you that a longer tee at 12 isn't necessary. It seems to been have done purely to add length and will definitely alter the previously strategic choice 2nd shot. I'll also agree with your course vs. wind assessment, however, it sure is fun when the wind comes up and swirls, apparent or not, at treetop level.
I do second the notion that WF be left alone...it is a classic for all time.

slapper

* Loved that birdie..helped to a first time ever 5 over from the tips!

[M.W. Burrows]

From what I understand they are going to put in a new fairway bunker on 5W further up on the right than the existing one.  

The superintendent told me last spring that they were thinking about putting a new tee back on 16 West.

I've also heard the Fazio is planning to reduce some of the slope on 11 and 13 East!  I really hope not as it would ruin two great short holes.

[Steve Lapper]

From what I understand they are going to put in a new fairway bunker on 5W further up on the right than the existing one.  

The superintendent told me last spring that they were thinking about putting a new tee back on 16 West.

I've also heard the Fazio is planning to reduce some of the slope on 11 and 13 East!  I really hope not as it would ruin two great short holes.

I had heard the same about 5W and 11/13 E from our member, but it supposedly was met with stiff resistance from the greens cmte......we should only hope!!

The thoughts on 16's back tee remain just that for the time being......again..another hope.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Slapper, et. al.,

Here is what I don't understand.

Why haven't there been complaints about the tee to the left of the 11th green for years ?

That is not the original tee.

The original tee is almost behind the 11th green.

The back tee to the left of # 11 green is relatively new.

Why hasn't anyone complained about that tee, which is just going to be extended/lengthened, for the last twenty years ?

How about the back tee on # 4, that's not an original tee, why no complaints about that one.

The same could be said of the tee on # 14, that's a relatively new tee also.

Winged Foot has added/lengthened tees for the last forty years and nobody says a word, and all of a sudden, the 12th tee, is being lengthened, FAZIO is and continues to consult with the club, and everyone gets in a tither, WHY,
WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS TEE VERSUS ALL THE OTHERS

[Matt_Ward]

Winged Foot / West is a superb championship course and minus the tree issue really doesn't need to be altered. Just check the scores over the years and the proof is there for all to see.

Adding a few tee boxes is one thing -- playing with the greens and bunkers is really unnecessary.

P.S. Maybe the next Open will feature firm & fast conditions and we shall see what the scores are then!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

Firm and fast in early to mid June in our neck of the woods is almost impossible.

I hadn't heard anything about any work to bunkers or greens at WFW.

How RELIABLE is this information ?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Pat,

I played WF today over a "composite course" of 22 holes on both the East and West due to an outing(s) that were going on. I did not see any changes or work to any greens or greenside bunkers, however, a number of fairway bunkers were being moved. There was obviously significant work being done to stretch out the tees, and I was told that the West will be close to 7300 yards for championship play and the East will be close to 6900 hundred yards. On the West, there will be at least 6 "walk-back" holes where you have to walk back to the tee from the last green after all the work is done. They have also "tested" firm and fast conditions by replacing grasses in front of a few greens, and the consensus is they will continue to do this work in front of greens. The biggest change in my mind was the reshaping/pinching of the fairways. The clearest example was on West #2 where the fairway will be 5-8 yards narrower, and the grass was being pulled up today. The greens on the West have just had "super-punching" with a significant aeration that is preparing the course for the 2004 Amateur. The removing of trees is significant, at least for me. As I was playing with a member who is a very good player, we played the back tees. When I pushed a fews drives into the trees, I always had some sort of recovery shot to get back to the fairway. Fazio is the consultant on this work.

In a nutshell, Winged Foot will continue to be a "manly test" as dictated by the original members from The NYAC. However, similar to Merion, there is no more room to grow after this work is done. It was a great day.

[Steve Lapper]

Mike,

I saw most of the fairway bunkers being worked on, none moved...are you sure thats what happening?? My friendly member and asst. super told me none were travelling.

Slap

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike & Slapper,

There is a little room to lengthen # 16. but, as was indicated above, they've just about run out of room on a lot of holes.

# 12 could use added length if one wants par 5's to be three shot holes, without planting a zillion trees, creating moats and machine gun nests.

I am unaware of any attempt to move bunkers and would echo slappers question, are you positive bunkers are being moved, and if so, which ones, and where ?

Matt Burrows,

How reliable is the information relative to anything being done to holes # 5 W and #'s 11/13 E ?

Mike Sweeney,

You're right, at par 72 Winged Foot West is a manly test.
At par 70 it's a brutish test.

How hard is # 8 if you draw the ball ?
Is # 6 one of the great short par 4's anywhere ?

Tree planting at Winged Foot began in earnest, after Casper won the 1959 open, and continued for some time.

Hopefully, other courses will hear of Winged Foot's successful tree clearing and embark on similar programs.

If the West course didn't exist, the East course would be more highly rated.

FAZIO has been the consulting architect at Winged Foot for years.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Slapper & Pat,

Again, we jumped around alot from East to West, and did not play any of the back on the West, so my memory could be off. There was definitely one fairway bunker being filled in/removed, I think on 9 West right bunker. It was "eye candy" even before techology, thus it was being removed not moved. My host pointed to at least 1 or 2 fairway bunkers, that "will be moved", but you are correct in that they have not been moved to date. Needless to say he/I could be incorrect, but again the biggest change in my mind was the narrowing of the fairways. Most had been lined/marked with paint, so you could see the "new" fairways on a number of holes.

[Steve Lapper]

Pat, et.al.....

I double checked today with an informed and active WF member who stated that they unequivocally do not want any fariway bunkers moved, just rebuilt with better drainage and consistent sand.
I noted nothing going on the West's #5. My pal also informed me that the USGA was "looking" at a new tee on 16, but that the greens cmte was not eager to add one just yet.

Couldn't agree more about just how tough #8 with a draw is and I second your call of #6 of one of the world's great short fours. The pin was way up front (an easier placement than most) and I still couldn't get it close. Argggghhhhhh!!!!!

[brad_miller]

The fairway bunker on #5W has been moved and enlarged. The fairway ground falls away to the right on this hole and a LARGE mound has been created to back this bunker up. IMHO it looks somewhat out of place almost Riveria like. (Referring to the newer bunkers at Riveria) Location further up fairway makes this an aiming bunker for me, it is about 200-220 from green, it is large. Redone fairway bunker on 18W looks better IMO then the new one on #5  because it is cut into the natural slope of the land, this one also looks like it has been moved or maybe just enlarged.

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad;

Knowing too-well what you mean by "Riviera-like", I'm hoping that it's not one of those east coast, hip-hop cousins at work again, although I hear there's a new dog in town who goes by the name of M.C. "Puffy" Tillinghast.

Could be just an unfounded rumor like the one about Too-Tall "Biggie" Fownes building new hyper-elevated tees at Oakmont.

Still, word on the street is sometimes...well..."word".  

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